Hello and a very warm welcome back to Widowed AF. You're here with me. I'm your host, Rosie Gill-Moss. I'm always here. And joining me from Suffolk, I've got Sophie Ransom. Hello, Sophie. Welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure. So, Sophie has got quite a harrowing story. I don't think that's going to be an understatement, is it? I've, as always, I've only got the bare bones because I'd like to hear the stories on, like, live, as it were. But your husband was killed on his motorbike, wasn't he? And The bit that really gets me is that you were 17 weeks pregnant at the time. I mean, the first thing I said to you when I saw you was just like, shit, I'm so sorry. That's just awful. So, I'm going to ask you now, Sophie, I'm not going to tell your whole story. I'm going to ask you to just tell me, In as much detail, and from wherever you want to start, about Paul, about how you met, and then, then we'll get to the gritty bit. I All right, well, I guess it starts when we met in 2016. Um, so we were both 19 babies. Um, I was in my second week of uni. I'd had all these plans, you know, of going to uni and being fun and single and all of that stuff. And then, yep, didn't go to plan because I met him. And then as soon as I met him, I was just like, yep, you're my person and I want to see you every day. So met Ben at uni. Yeah, we didn't meet sort of organically as such. We did meet on Tinder. Classic. Um, and, um, he kept asking me out and I kept saying, no, I'm actually going to meet someone off the internet because that's weird. Um, and then we both happened to be in the same Irish bar one night. So, um, yeah, he joined my table with my flatmates. We had a drink and he walked me. all the way back to my flat, which was 40 minutes up a really steep hill. So I thought I've definitely pulled here. And he said, can I come in for a cup of tea? And I thought I've definitely pulled here. And he did exactly that. He came in for a cup of tea, got a taxi home. And I What a gent! Aww! Um, yeah. And so I was a bit miffed. I thought, Oh, that was a waste of time. And, um, didn't go on my phone until the next day and then saw as basically as soon as he had left my flat, he texted me and he said, I really like you. I'm just a bit nervous. Can we go out tomorrow? yeah, we did. And that was it. Then we couldn't get rid of each other. So, yeah, that that was that was that. And then it just kind of we were inseparable, to be honest. Um, I was down in Winchester for university. I was from Cambridge and, um, just stayed down there really because he was there. And was he a student at the same uni? I want He wasn't, no, but he lived there. So, um, he was there and I just thought, nope, this is where I'm supposed to be. So I stayed there and yeah, I guess it moved quite quickly. I, I then did the next few years at university and. We bought our first house at 23, um, and it was the start of what I thought was going to be the best few years of my life. Um, the next year we got engaged and then we got married, um, 13 months after we got engaged, um, And we knew, just always knew that we wanted children. If you'd asked me since I was a child what I wanted to be when I grew up, I just used to say a mum. And I remember people saying to me, you know, what job do you want? I'd say, no, just want to be a mum. a mum. Um, so yeah, we, we got pregnant not long after our wedding. Um, so we were, Married at 24 in the November. We had a lovely Christmas, went on a lovely honeymoon, went to Barbados, it was incredible. Had a huge New Year's Eve party. I remember saying like, this is gonna be our year. Um, found out we were pregnant not long after and then, yeah, all went wrong in the May. We just left for work and didn't make it. So how old are you now, Sophie? I'm now just turned 27. So I think you might be my youngest guest. That's really, really young. I was 37 and that's you know, that felt really brutal. But this, I don't know how at 27 you can possibly be equipped to cope with that, you know, becoming a mother for the first time as well. Just as an aside, um, I met Ben when I was at university in London and he was working there. I, I took a Saturday, I applied for a Saturday job at the place he was working and, um, we, he turned up and it ended up being our first sort of date in an Irish bar and he walked me home. He did stay over there. I definitely would have let Paul had he tried. My mom's not listening. It's fine. She's listened to enough. Um, so talk to me then about what happened and what ultimately brought you into this. The shitshow, as we like to call it here. Yeah, so, funnily enough, I've heard a lot of your guests say you almost have some sort of premonition that something is coming because the day before he died, I'd been sat in the nail salon having my nails done, saying, God, I just don't know how I'd ever live without him. I love him so much. I wouldn't know what to do. I wouldn't know how to do all the things. blue jobs or all those kinds of things. And it's like something inside your body just goes, this is going to happen to you. Um, isn't it? yeah, we had a lovely last evening together, which I'm so grateful for. He, um, he went to the gym, which he always did. And on his way back, he'd been to M& S and he'd got a Colin the Caterpillar cake that was reduced. And I was like, why have you got a cake? It's none of our birthdays. So we pretended it was our birthday. We sang happy birthday to each other and the cat. And then we had some cake and watched a film, which was really lovely because I'd had a terrible pregnancy until that point. I mean, I was basically comatose from so much anti sickness Oh no. I was just dosed up to my eyeballs at that point and spent most of the day asleep, really struggled to work or do anything. But somehow I just got this sort of little pep in my step that night. And, um, it was really lovely and we went to sleep as normal. He said, night night, love you. Gave each other a kiss. He gave my tummy a kiss. And, um, I've actually now realised that was the last thing he ever said to anyone, because he won't have seen anybody else or spoken to anybody else the next day. So, um, goodness. I feel really grateful for that, but also I just think, Oh, I had no clue. I know. It's like a different person, isn't it? Like this innocent I almost felt like I was I wasn't a child, I was, you know, in my thirties, but I felt almost like I was so innocent of the world up until that point. Yeah, and I'm massive over thinker and spiraller and I actually obsessed over people dying and I would plan every scenario in my head of what I would do if somebody died and My my parents aren't together and I'd always thought how would I ring my dad and tell my dad that my mum has died or? How would I ring my mum and tell my mum that my dad has died and I'd? Planned everything I'd say, planned everything I'd do, and the one person I never thought about was Paul. No, I was the same. I was the same. We never had the conversation about cremation or burial. We, I don't think I knew that he had a will, because I can remember not thinking he had one. We, he did have life insurance, thankfully. Um, but yeah, we didn't, I, I had no, he was such a, um, a presence, such a big presence. And it, it still to this day seems absolutely incomprehensible to me that, that can just stop. And Paul was so healthy, he was probably the healthiest person I knew, so I really maybe naively thought, oh well he'll never get cancer or something like that, because he's so young and he's so fit and he's so healthy. And he didn't have any, although he was riding motorbike obviously, but he didn't have any sort of extreme dangerous hobbies. It had just never crossed my mind. And it's things like with the motorbike, I would think like with Ben's diving, because they've done it for so long and they do it safely and it's part of, you know, who they are, you don't even, you begin to think of it, sorry, I'll put my teeth back in, you sort of stop thinking of that as even being dangerous. Because even when the police came to my door, I assumed he'd had a car accident, even though I knew he'd been under the water scuba diving. That never registered. no, and I think he used to wear, he wore full leathers even in the height of summer. He'd done an advanced rider course to make sure he was as safe as he could be. He didn't have sort of an old bike that was falling apart. So, yeah, it just never crossed my mind. No, my dad rides a motorbike actually, and he's in his 70s, and it probably needs to consider stopping at some point. But he's like that, he's full, you know, could we call it, he's got like this neon yellow all in one suit that he wears. He looks like a police biker or something, but he keeps safe, which is, well, as far as you can. And I found out after Paul died, I never really knew, because I wasn't into bikes or anything like that, there's no way you'd catch me on the back of one, um, that his friends used to hate going for rides with him, because they used to call him Grandad, because he was so slow. Yeah, knew he didn't ride recklessly, and after I heard that, I thought, yeah. Because we didn't know what happened for a long time. So your brain does that thing, doesn't it? Where it goes, maybe this happened, maybe that happened. And for a long time, I did think maybe he just was writing really recklessly, but he wasn't. But, um, so, yeah, so that was our, was our last night together. And, um, the next morning, um, Yeah, I was dosed up again on my, um, sickness tablets. So I didn't wake up when he got up that morning. He got up, turned the light on, got dressed, had a shower, and I was just in such a deep sleep at that point. So he left for work. Um, he left about 15 minutes earlier than normal that day. And I think it was because it was nice weather. So Because he wasn't on his usual route to work when he crashed. He was on a route to work, but not his normal one. And, yeah, from, from what we understand from ANPR cameras, he had a lovely sort of half an hour ride around the back roads, wasn't caught speeding at any point or anything like that, no reports from the public of him riding recklessly. And he was about two miles from work and he was in a collision with a lorry. And he died instantly. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that, and it's all those changes, isn't it? You know, different route to work, leaving 15 minutes early. It's, you, you mentioned that, like, the what ifs and, you know, the one, wanted to know what had happened and Ben's dive site was changed on the day. You know, it's, you just think, oh, why did, The universe conspire against us that day. And I feel so much guilt that I didn't get up that day. Because I think, if I'd have just got up, and we'd have had a two minute conversation, he wouldn't have been where he was, the lorry wouldn't have been where it was, and yes, maybe he still might have come off. but he might not have come off into the path of a huge glory, um, and I think it's taken me 18 months to learn that I'm not going to forgive myself for that, but I have to accept that it wasn't my fault, um, but I do think I will feel forever annoyed as myself that I didn't. makes me really sad to hear you say that actually. Um, those words, I'm not gonna forgive myself 'cause I, you know, from the outside looking in, which it's, it's much easier to do that. Of course it is. I'm thinking you were 17 weeks pregnant. You were really, really sick in your pregnancy. I've been pregnant three times. I know. I should. It is. And you were just in bed asleep. Um, you know, you didn't. throw him out the house early because he was getting on your nerves. You didn't say to, you know, you didn't have a row and he's gone storming off into the night, you know, with his head not in the game. I, I don't, I, I don't think you need to forgive yourself for anything. I think that, well, you should forgive yourself, but there's nothing there to forgive. But I also know that it's really easy for me to say that. So in your application, you mentioned that initially, um, There was questions over the road surface and the HG, HG, HGV driver, um, was found to, initially found to have failed a drugs test. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, so it was all really chaotic, to be honest. I think, um, Like, I think you've had other people on here who sort of said the same, that with this age of social media now, you almost know something has happened before it's happened, and, um, Paul didn't turn up for work, so his boss rang me, um, which was really unusual for him, he was usually there first, and I looked on Find My Friends, and I said, oh, he's glitching around the corner, he, he has left late, and I watched that dot. And that dog did not move. And I rang my mum and she did the classic thing of, Oh, he'll be fine. Just, he's stuck in traffic. But I've spoken to my mum afterwards and she said she just knew. instantly that something was wrong, which was trying to keep me calm. And so I did ring the police and I said, I know it sounds really weird, but has something happened on this road? They said, no, everything's fine, but what would your husband be wearing? And I said, oh, he'd be wearing full leathers, blah, blah, blah. They said, all right, someone will give you a call back. I was like, okay. And then another half an hour and his boss had gone and he said, I'll ring you as soon as I get there. And he never rang. So I just knew. So I think that sort of rushed the police along to have to come and talk to me and, and tell me about things. But by the time his boss had rung to say he wasn't at work, Paul had already died. But I think they didn't have that initial time to try and even figure out what might have happened before they came and saw me. So they knocked on the door and um, I'll never forget it. Um, I was on the phone to my mum and um, I looked through the peephole and there was a police officer and he had this little green folder from a charity called Break and on the front it said for families bereaved in road traffic collisions Oh, Jesus. and my mum said you just need to open the door and my to open the door. my poor mum was four hours away on the end of the phone and just heard this police officer say poor his Has been in a collision and he hasn't survived his injuries. Oh my God. Like, what? And you're completely on your own. Yeah, um, darling. and I remember just thinking, but I'm pregnant, Yeah, yeah, this can't happen. but how? Like, for, I remember like, in that time after knowing he hadn't come to work, but waiting for the police to come, I did the bargaining that I've heard you talk about so many times before, I went, my God, I'm going to have to look after him with broken legs and a baby, or, and then it went to, well, if he's lost his legs, that's all right. And then I was thinking, well, if he's lost his legs and one arm, I'll still love him. And then I thought, well, what if he's lost both legs and both arms? Would I still love him? Then, you know, I did this whole, what might have happened? And so one of the first things I said was, well, what's happened? And they didn't know. So I feel like they almost tried to tell me something before they knew. And he said, he's been in a collision with a lorry. And my first thought went to, we live near Portsmouth, near the coast. It's for a driver who's on the wrong side of the road and hit him. So I thought that for a period of time. Then I was told that the driver had failed a roadside drugs test, Mm hmm. but they didn't tell me what for. So some Googling told me that that would be cocaine or cannabis. Mm hmm, yeah, yeah so then for a period of time, I was thinking, God, there's been this like rampant cocaine fueled drive and it's been all dramatic. So I thought that for a really long period of time. Which actually in some way helped at the beginning because it gave me somebody to really cross out. Um, and then, then I found out that actually it was just cannabis he'd, he'd tested positive for. And I thought, oh, all right, but it doesn't really explain it. And then I think it must have been six, seven months after he died, that I got a really blase email from my family liaison officer that just said, um, yeah, the drive has come in under and I replied and said, Come in under what? And he said, oh, come in under the legal limit on the blood test that we've taken in custody. And I was like, oh, okay, so what does that mean? Because I'd spent six months hating this man, thinking he had killed my husband, wishing awful things on him. It had also spread around, I discovered from my hairdresser, that she kind of knew who the driver was and people thought that he had killed a young guy with a pregnant wife at home. Um, and yeah, turns out that he had had a blood test in custody and Turns out that there is a legal limit and he was under it, um. And now mean that his driving wouldn't have been impaired by it it might be that he'd had a spliff it because a cannabis stays in your system quite a long time in terms of blood results Doesn't it? Mmm. a spliff maybe the day before or something like that. And, um, yeah. And I now understand, nearly 18 months later, that, um, everything was caught on dash cam footage. And what had actually happened was, for some reason that is still completely unknown, that they believed was the road surface, Paul slid towards the lorry. So he came around a nest bend down a hill. Um, he came around the first corner fine. He came around the second corner for some reason. I haven't watched the footage, so I don't know what happened, but he became detached from his bike, they've described it to me, and he just slid straight into the path of the lorry. Um, so they did think maybe it was the road surface, because the road had been resurfaced the night before the accident. And it was really shiny and slippy, even from the first day of the accident. And the police, because they had the road closed for about six days, which It's quite unusual, I think, to do testing on the road. They said this is quite slippy, but they have done so much testing, they've had so much independent witnesses come in, and there's nothing that they can find. So, I think I've just started to try and process that it is an accident in. the truest Yeah, of the really a really difficult place to get to and it kind of forms part of acceptance because, like you, I mean not as severe as your circumstances because I, I was very angry with the skipper of the boat, um, because I felt that, um, there were also, there were other deaths that happened on the boat prior to this which were deemed in court not to be relevant and connected, but I'll steer away from that, shall I, but. I was really angry with this guy because I reached out to the dive community, um, and said, can you get him to call me? I need to speak to the last person who saw Ben and he never called me. So I then, you know, none of you can come to the funeral. Um, and I really kind of villainized this guy, you know, he was, he was my adversary. And then when we went to the coroner's court and I heard what happened from him and from somebody else on the phone, I It was like the kind of fight left me because I thought it wasn't his fault. It wasn't his fault. Like, you know, perhaps they should have said you shouldn't go in on your own, but Ben was the one who went in on his own. Perhaps they should have said you shouldn't go in if you've been sick. Ben made that choice. So it's, it's realizing that I don't blame Ben in any way, shape, or form, but I also don't have anybody else to blame. And it's accepting that sometimes, and it's, shit things happen to people that really don't deserve it. And just, I think having nowhere for that anger to go is quite frightening in a way. Because what do you do with that now? Um, found that really hard and I spent probably about six months hating Paul, which was a really difficult thing to feel. I had this tiny little fresh baby that just looked like a mini Paul, but every time I thought of him, I hated him because I thought, how could you do this could you leave me? thought, God, my, my main, my mind went everywhere. I thought, did he throw himself in front of this lorry? I thought everything, every possible scenario, I thought it. And he, now I think back to even when I thought about this and I just, I can't believe I even thought it. But he died pretty much instantly. Um, we haven't had the inquest yet, which is a whole nother. Um, I have seen the post mortem report and even the, the coroner in there has noted that he will have been deeply unconscious instantly and will have had no idea what happened and will have died pretty much soon after because he was, um, run over on his stomach. So internal bleeding. will have killed him pretty much instantly. So he, the air ambulance worked on him for about an hour and a half. At no point did they get a pulse, an eye flicker or anything. He was completely gone, but visually he looked pretty much unremarkable. Um, and I think because he looked so unremarkable from when I identified him, I felt like he'd just given up and he hadn't fought for us. And I was so cross with him. for not fighting for us. Um, and that was really difficult because I didn't have anyone else to be cross with about why it happened, so I thought, well, if it's not the lorry driver's fault, it's not the road's fault, the only person left is you. Yeah, yeah. And I, the, I'm, I am writing a book at the moment, slowly, and I, I have one chapter that's called I Hate My Dead Husband, because I, the times I've, you know, particularly when the children were being challenging, or the world felt really difficult, I was trying to earn a living and had all these bills, and I, at that moment, I was so angry with him, so angry with him. I, I, I genuinely do think it is a stage of grief that you have to go through, and I kind of. In the end, I sort of thought to myself, how many stupid mistakes have I made that could have killed me over the years? You know, how many times have I, I dunno, got in a car with somebody I shouldn't have done, you know, but all the little tiny snap decisions that you make that could have killed you in the, on the spot. And I suppose it's that acceptance that they were fallible to. And I, it sounds to me like Paul was like kind of big protecting guy, you know? That's the way you describe him, you know, that he made you feel safe and, and that. It just seems so impossible that they haven't managed to save themselves that you almost feel angry with them and it's, it's completely futile and pointless and just makes us feel horrible, but we kind of got to go through it. Yeah. So your, your daughter now, um, is, I think you said she's one on Monday, Yeah. because you have kept a child alive for a whole year, which I think is an enormous achievement. But talk to me about that because you would have then had to go to hospital appointments. You presumably, who was with you at the birth? So I had my mum, I had, um, I was really, really lucky that I have I have an amazing support system. Within five minutes of being told that Paul had died, I had friends at my house. We sort of all lived within the same new build development, so um, yeah, one of my friends was on maternity leave, so Bless her, I think she literally picked her little boy up, who must have been, I don't know, maybe four or five months old at the time, in his pajamas, brought him over. And I just remember at one point looking over and there just being this baby lying on the living room floor. So I'm like, oh, okay, like I hadn't even registered No, you don't, no, had happened. And, um, yeah, so my parents lived about four hours where I was living down in Hampshire at the time. Um, But at no point, even though they were that far away, did I have to do anything on my own. Um, so my mum, my stepdad and my dad, between them, um, sort of just alternated hospital appointments, really. Um, so obviously I did more of my pregnancy without Paul than with Paul. He'd come to everything before that, every midwife appointment. I'd had quite a lot of scans, because I'd had a lot of bleeding. in the early stages, so pretty much once a week we thought, I think the baby's gone here, so we'd go for a scan. And I just had a hematoma. Um, but yeah, they came with me and then I moved, um, about three weeks before I had Poppy up to the other end of the country to be near a family. So that was logistically much easier because I had family around and, um, yeah, went into hospital on the Thursday, Poppy made a very dramatic entrance. on at half level on the Saturday night. Um, kept you waiting a while. she did. Um, I, I had an induction, which actually, as far as inductions go, it was really quite positive until my body just went, I'm not going to do anymore. I've had enough. Um, so I ended up having a general anesthetic C section at half past 11 on a Saturday night. So didn't end up having mum with me in the room because when you're put to sleep, you can't have anybody with you. But I had my mum with me. all the time until that point. but even that, I had a similar situation with my second child. I'd had a C section first time and second one I wanted to have a natural birth. And one of the reasons I wanted to do it was because I wanted to be up and about because Ben would have had to go back to work. And, and I ended up having a, uh, uh, uh, general anesthetic in a C section. And I'm just thinking how broken I was after that procedure. I've had three cesareans. That one, the other two were fine. That one, it just was, I can remember lying in bed thinking I'm never going to feel better. This is, I'm going to be in pain forever. And now I'm trying to imagine doing that without Ben. And how daunting that must have been because you wouldn't even have been able to be up and about like you would be after a natural birth. And it sounds, I mean it sounds like your mum and dad are amazing. Did, did they, did you stay with them at this point? So I stayed with my mum on and off after Paul died until Poppy came. Um, I stayed with her the night that Paul died. Um, and then for me, it was really important to be at home and in my home and in my space where I could. feel Paul and smell him and his pants that he's still left on the floor on the floor, and that's where I wanted to be. And, um, so they sort of just alternated between them staying So how did you, how did you manage that feeling of wanting to be so close to him and moving out of necessity to be closer to your family? Because I, I've done it as well. I've shut the door on that family home and walked away from it and it. By the time I left, and I don't know if it's the same here, because it was empty, it was a shell. All the stuff had gone and you just realize it's just a house. But it's still a really difficult thing to do. But you were the same as me, you had a knock at the door, and I even changed my front door and it still, I still, every time I came home it, ugh, Yeah. By the time I moved, I felt really at peace with the mm hmm. um, and I actually, at the beginning, I needed to be in that house and I needed to be where he had been only hours before. But by the time I moved, I was actually finding it really difficult to be in our house because we just started thinking about a nursery and I thought, how am I ever going to going to do a nursery that we should have done together in this room. And I was looking at things that I'd been nagging him to do, like things to put on the wall and he'd never done. And I think, oh, for God's sake, I'm still looking at After it now, won't I? um, and it was becoming more and more upsetting than comforting being there. I get I just really felt like I needed a fresh start. I needed somewhere that was mine and Poppy's. That was our house, you know. art house where Paul should have been. He's never been where I live now, so there was no connection to him, so it was quite I had to be quite purposeful with making that connection and intentional. I was just going to ask you what, what you've done in terms of sort of photographs and things, if you made sure there's lots of pictures around. And I guess Poppy's little, but at some point you'll have to, you may already have started about talking to her about why daddy's not there. And I'm leaping on a bit because I haven't even asked you about the funeral, but yeah, here we are. Um, and I just, I'm trying to think with Tabs what I did. I've got a video somewhere of her. pointing at a picture of me and Ben and she was little, she was really little and she's saying mummy and daddy it because she'd already said dad well you know in the way they do when they're babies that doesn't really count but the men like to think it does and so he She'd already said that was her first word, and Yeah, typical service got, he got, he got to hear it, fortunately. But I was just wondering whether you do that sort of thing with her, you know, this is your daddy, and, and, and, I might even be too early to ask you, but what sort of, do you have a plan of what you're going to tell her as she gets older? So I've worked through this a lot with my therapist, um, therapy. um, Sorry, it's the only thing I find it really hard to talk about. I We can stop if you want absolutely fine, but I think about Poppy and my heart literally breaks. I know, darling, I know. so I read her a story every single night called I Have an Angel. Um, It's a lovely book. It just sort of says I've got an angel and he can see me and he can hear me. I can't see or hear him, but he's always there and he loves me so much and that kind of thing. So I read that every night so that it hopefully is just normal for her. And I've got pictures of him in her room and we say night night, Dada. Um, and Yeah, I, I've started sort of saying to her where's Dada and she'll point up and we say Dada's in the sky. Um, because she's, yeah, she now says Mama, Dada, a few other little, little words. And I don't think I can cope with ever having to sit down and break it to her. I don't. No, at all. I always think there's no, any one way that this situation can be easier than another. But I know that I wouldn't have been strong enough to ever have to tell her that Paul had died. And I don't know how you and so many other people did that. I, I don't think I could have done that. Yeah. weird strength that you get that you really wish you hadn't had to find, but I think what you're doing sounds really lovely and I, I think with Tabs because she grew up really, I mean, yes, she had six months with Ben, but she doesn't know him and I really struggle with that just like you will because I have never watched videos of Ben. Um, I'm planning to every year. I'm like, this is the year. This is a year because I want her to be able to see what he looked like moving and animated. But it's, it's just part of who she is. She doesn't find that it makes, I suppose I'm trying to offer a little bit reassurances from further down the line and things like when she started school, I, um, I am remarried. So that adds another dimension to it. But I did a little booklet about, you know, they, they asked us to do this booklet about them. And in there I put, I've got two daddies. Um, one of my daddies is in heaven and this is my stepdaddy. And just sort of taking away all the mystique and the, the, the shrouding and secrecy that would have happened if it was our generation. You know, that's what happened. You just didn't speak about them anymore. And I think by, I don't want to say normalizing it because it's not normal to have your dad die before you're even born. That's not normal. By not making it this great big secret that you're going to announce on her birthday when she's 13 or something. It means that you're right, it's a much softer approach and it's, it's just part of who she is and, and I think you might find like I have with Tabby that she's now gone into therapy and she's seven. And because she's now got some questions, and I actually realized that I had never sat down with her and done the thing, you know, done the, this is what happened, and I was driving her to school the other day, and, um, they do this to you as they get older, prepare for this. So, mummy, what, what did happen to daddy? Can you tell me what happened on that day? And I was driving, and I find it quite, easy to have difficult conversations driving because you're just a bit distracted, aren't you? And I was able to tell her quite matter of factly, but also to allow how I felt to come through, because I said it was the most awful thing that's ever happened to me. It was devastating. And I said, but you were awesome. Like you slept through the week, through the night for a week afterwards. You haven't done it since, but you did it then. And it was, um, It was kind of, because it wasn't all a surprise, because she knew what had happened, she knew her dad had died, she knew he was scuba diving, but she didn't understand, you know, what happened when the police knocked on the door, because I'm not, so, I guess the conversations happen, but they don't happen in that horrible, heartbreaking, world shattering way, when you have to tell a slightly older child. Um, sorry, I'd rather, Went on a bit there, but I, I really like the sound of what you're doing and I, I read a book to Tabby, um, called The Paper Dolls, which is really lovely as well. That's, and there's a couple of other ones that I, I might put them on the website, because, Finding a way for a very young child to be able to understand loss and grief is really difficult because they can't even say baa baa black sheep yet. there's nothing aimed at a child that has never met their parent, I've found. I've, so far, not found anything at all. Um, maybe we should write one. God, I haven't got the energy. I thought Maybe one day. I'm on your end, sorry. yeah, and it's hard because Luckily, there are not many of us who are in this situation, but we are there, and we do have to have these conversations with our children, and my therapist has, has found loads of resources for me and things, but even she said, I can't find anything about how to talk to a child that has never met their parent, and I said, will, will she grieve him? Will she miss him? And she sort of just had to say, I don't know, probably, but I don't know, so it's all a bit unknown, really. I think what I'm seeing, and I've sort of been expecting it to happen at some point, is that sort of grief for the unknown, and a little bit of jealousy. And even, um, for the boys, I've made them, uh, they wanted proper photo albums, not print, proper, you know, with the slidey bits in. pictures of them and their dad. And I was able to fill two, you know, medium sized albums quite easily. Of course, for tabs, I had a six month old. I wasn't taking family photos. There's a lot of pictures of her, but not that many of him and her. And I think she's quite envious of, of even that, that they've got that sort of real, and then they can remember that it's. It's the way Monty described it. He's now 14. It's like grains of sand. You know, the memory is starting to go. And that actually is really, really sad. Our job, I suppose, is to be the kind of keeper of the memories, is to talk about them, to make them feel like they know who they were, because it's all very well. And I'm guilty of this as well. You can kind of canonize them. Oh, your dad this, your dad that. And, um, one of my children said they've almost felt a bit intimidated. By his legacy, you know, that he was such an amazing, it's like, okay, let me set the record straight. Yeah. He was an amazing man, a saint he was not, and I think it's, you know, having, joking about their mannerisms or their terrible taste in music and things like that, humanizing them as a person as well is really important. I do that a lot, and even, I think, at the funeral, because everybody just sort of idolizes them after they die, don't they? And they put them on this pedestal, and sometimes I hear people talk about him. And it's like they're talking about somebody else. And I think, no, I mean, even the morning that he died, I remember going into the bathroom after he died and, God, he could just never use a bath mat. We had separate bathrooms and he was not allowed in mine at all. is the dream. was only because I was more messy than him. And, um, But he never used a bathmat and it drove me insane why I would put one in there, he could not just put it on the floor and step on it when he got out of the shower. And I went upstairs, and it used to look like he had melted. His clothes would just be wherever his body had been. And I went in, and pants were there, socks were there, top was over there, and this huge puddle of water. And I thought, Left me to clean that up now, haven't you? up another, but I left it, I left it to dry. And I thought, no, I'm not doing it anymore. you know what I found as well? I was not always the hottest on keeping on top of the laundry and Ben works abroad, so he used to come out with this horrible dirty laundry. And, um, I, I'd washed it all. Everything was washed. Our bedding was fresh. You know, there was nothing, nothing that smelt of him. Well, I did the opposite, and I left his dirty washing in his washing basket for about six months until it walk itself to the machine? it. It had to go in the That's kind of been, yeah, I had some like work clothes, but I drew the line at that. I was actually, I'll tell you what, have you had anything made from his clothes for Poppy? No, I haven't. Um, I, I don't know if it's just me. I don't feel any connection to his clothes, really. He really was not sentimental or materialistic or anything like that, really. Um, I've got a couple of tops that I have inside the house. And when Poppy was born, I had some pictures taken. Um, and I had one taken of her. And we sort of wrapped the top around her so it was like he was giving her a little cuddle. And that one feels really special now because I can really picture him in it. Um, but no, it, I don't feel anything no, I only don't want to get rid of them at all and anybody dares even try and suggest it to me. Um, then yeah, they'll get a bit of my but the thing was they can just stay in the suitcase for as long as you want them to, can't they? You don't have to, and I've got Ben's dressing gown and a jumper of his hanging in my wardrobe here, and I had a pair of his boots, because I said wherever I go, his boots will always have a place, I don't know why. He just wore these chunky brown boots, but they, they to me have that kind of real essence of Ben. Um, and my eldest son is, is enormous and he wears his clothes now, which is a little bit disconcerting if he wears that becomes down in the jeans and jacket. I'm like, Jesus Christ. But one thing I did do is, um, I did it for all of them, including my stepdaughter Holly. I had clothes made from their back. parent toys made. So they're, they're bunnies and they're, they're really, really sweet. And they've got all little bits and Ben always wore jeans and check shirt. And so it, I, I found, because I had the similar thing, I didn't want to get rid of his stuff. I also didn't know what am I doing with a suitcase full of skanky H& M t shirts? You know, they were all holes in and things. It was nothing that could be reused. So that, that has been. Something that um, you know, they don't sort of sleep cuddled up with them every night, but they're precious. They live in their bedrooms, they've all got one and they sort of stay in there. And the other thing that might be really helpful, um, I don't know if there's anything like that near you, I'm assuming there probably is, but around here there's a charity called Holding on Letting Go who um, And I'm going to put tabs in she's not done it yet because I thought, well, is she grieving? Does she have, you know, does she need it? You know, you're not sure. Um, and they do work with children who've lost a parent and, or, or anybody actually. And so there are sometimes as she gets older, you might find there's more available to, to her. Actually, tell me about his funeral. We didn't talk about that. And often when somebody dies young and suddenly there's quite a spectacle of a funeral. So tell me about mm. Um, can't really tell you much if I'm honest because I've really blocked it out. Um, you couldn't even get drunk, could you? no! No, I think that's the only way I got through, my god. Um, I really don't connect his funeral to him dying if I'm honest. Um, I, I think more about the time that I spent with him at the funeral home before, like that was my sort of closure, but his funeral was, yeah, there was quite a lot of people there, maybe 200 people or so, I think the crematorium, they were sort of, all the seats were filled, they were piled maybe three deep at the back, all down the sides as well. Um, about that, isn't there? And it's one thing I do say to people, is if somebody you know loses someone, even if you weren't that close to them, go to the funeral. There's just, there's something about having that many people, it's making me go all goosebumpy, in a room grieving with you. Widowhood is so isolating and so lonely, and in that moment, and it doesn't last because people have their own lives, but in that moment, everybody is there because they care about you, and I think there's something really powerful in that. yeah, um, the service itself was lovely. as lovely as funerals can be, I somehow, I was in shock big time. Um, I managed to stand up and read our wedding poem. We'd been married six months and 10 days when he died, um, and we'd had this lovely poem, um, that was sort of like, wherever we go, whenever there's me, I hope there's you. And, Um, I read the poem and it was sort of, it talks about how it doesn't matter what you've got as long as you've got each other, that's all you need, and that's all you need to be happy. And I read the poem and I was absolutely fine, not a single tear, and then the last line again says wherever we go. Whatever we do, whenever there's me, I hope there's you. And the words, I had hoped there would be you, just came out my mouth. And then I cried, and I must have cried maybe five tears, and then nothing again for the rest of the funeral. And I just stared out the window. I didn't watch the visual tribute, I didn't listen to a word that the celebrant said, I just looked out the window. And out. dissociated and Bloody well done for speaking though. Bloody well done. I, I spoke at Ben's and I wrote him a letter and it was really difficult, but like you, I managed to keep my shit together until I sat down after reading it and then they played Rocketman and the line, I miss the earth so much I miss my wife. And that was it. I was gone. Absolutely. Just sobbing. And then you sort of put that face back on again and you get a drink and you mingle with people. And you say, thank you so much for coming. and you give all these people hugs and everyone was touching my tummy and like oh is she Oh no. was like oh fuck off me. Get off me. And actually somebody did say to my mum at the funeral. I have said this before, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself. But she said, oh, don't, don't worry. Rosie's still young and beautiful. She'll meet someone. And my mum was like, Jesus, do not say that to her. I mean, as it happens, but it wasn't immediate. It's the, it's having to then host. You're hosting a, essentially a party for other people, and you're consoling other people, and you're worrying about other people, where they might park, and is there enough food? And it's after all of that goes away, That's when things get really I think I found that the hardest. Funny you say about the console, I told my therapist about this last week, and I said, one thing I will never understand is why people came to my house and sat on my sofa and cried at me about how sad they were, and I just sat there. Frozen. I didn't cry. And I just They're there. I don't care, I know. And grief does make you a little selfish in that way. And I saw this great diagram on it and it was about how when you lose your romantic partner. You lose everything, you lose everything, and I'm not downplaying the loss of anybody else, but it's so isolating and all of these people will go back home to their families, to their partners, and you're left in the house. Thinking, what the fuck do I do? And you also weren't very well because you just, you said at the beginning of the interview that you, um, you are having to take really heavy medication for your morning sickness. So were you able to even work or anything after this? How did you, I mean, how did you provide for yourself? Um, I look back now and I think, what was I doing? Um, I did go back to work. I actually went back to work before we even had a funeral. Um, And I think it was just so that I didn't sit and think. I don't think I really did much work, so I'm sorry about that. Um, I think they'll probably forgive you. I think I just sort of sat in front of a computer screen and saw emails come in and thought, oh, I don't know what to do, but it gave me purpose. I went back three days, um, which gave me that time to, so I worked, had a day off, worked, had a day off, and on those days off, I was exhausted. Um, But it gave me something to do, and I also knew from a practical point of view, I had to go back to get maternity leave, so I didn't really have much choice in that sense. I do think that my work would have been helpful. Um, and they did put me back on full pay even though I was only working three days a week, which I was really grateful for. That's really nice. That's really nice to hear. yeah. Um, so I was lucky in that sense, but work just became something to distract me and I had to do it. And then I went off on maternity leave, um, about three weeks before I had poppy. So I worked that whole time. I did take a week off after the funeral because I had that big dip where I kind of thought, Oh, your body was actually in there, and if you were gonna come home, You would have would have come home by now. Do you think that being pregnant and I'm, I'm thinking about the early stages of grief for a lot of people tend to be quite self destructive. So a lot of people will spiral into binge drinking, binge eating, even drug use. And it's, I'm thinking if you're pregnant and you've got this. baby, this unborn baby that needs you. Did that make you kind of have to take care of yourself, have to make sure that you ate better, got sleep or, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I have no clue. I've not been in the situation. Yeah, so I promised Paul when I went to go and see him at the funeral home, I promised him that I wouldn't kill myself, um, because it was all I had thought about until that point, and I find it really difficult, um, because I just didn't want to be here. Yeah. I, I remember asking one of my midwives if I could get rid of Poppy, um, if it was too late, if I was too far along. And I thought, well, if I just do that, then I can go as well. Um, brave of you to say that. It's so brave because I'll be, I'll, I'll, I'll be honest with you too. I, um, I started in the car having really intrusive thoughts and I was thinking I can't kill myself because of my children so we all have to go and then I went to the doctor because I would never have done it but I couldn't see how I was going to, I feel quite emotional now as well actually, I couldn't see how I was going to want to live. Um, I felt like I was going to exist for the rest of my life. The fact that I had those children there, right in front of me, needing me, looking to me for answers, was both an incredible heavy weight to bear, because I was responsible for all of us, but they also gave me the purpose of my life. uh, that I needed. When I couldn't carry on for myself, I managed to for them. And I know that Tabs was, um, I mean, don't get me wrong, the kid drives me around the bend, but she was so innocent in all of this. She She didn't know what was going on and so I had to kind of, the boys went to school, so like you and work, I had that purpose, I had to get up and go and do the school run, that made me get up and, but then what do you do all day? And I think having her at home, because I was on maternity leave as well, meant that I, I did the baby singing groups and baby yoga and all the bullshit that you think you should do, but it, I met people and I got back out into the world and I was really, really determined. Transcribed Unlike you, I made a promise to Ben that his children would grow up to see beauty in the world and, and joy. And I, I just thought this baby, this beautiful little girl is, I can't let her be sad for her whole life. I can't let her absorb my sorrow. And there's nothing you can do. They're going to feel some of it in the cellular level. Of course they are. I will tell you now is that she's happy and She's, I don't mean she's crazy, but she's, she's bright and sparky. They all are. And I don't feel like that anymore. And I'm so glad that in those dark moments that I wasn't, that nothing pushed me any further if that makes sense. I am so grateful for her. And she is the best thing that has ever happened to me and she has saved my life because I know and I think I've, um, I don't even actually ever really told any of my family that I felt like that. Um, I told my midwife because I was really scared that I would do something. Um, But I didn't tell my family because I didn't want to burden them, and that's the thing, isn't it? You don't want to burden people, and then you end up internalizing it all and feeling worse about it. And it's something I feel quite passionate about, is having the, the space to say to somebody, I feel like I want to end it all, without them going into panic. Because sometimes you, the words themselves, saying them out loud, it's like so many things, isn't it? They lose their power. Because you say it, and you're like, oh my god, no I don't. In that moment. I, I, yeah, I just, I, I don't, I haven't really got words for once because it is so utterly terrifying and all you want to do is find your person again. And that's what scares me as well is because my son, he said to me, I want to die so I can be with daddy. And it's like, no, no, because I don't believe in an afterlife either, which makes things a little even more complicated. he was able to say it to me and we worked through it. So I think you were incredibly brave for saying that just now. I think you're incredibly brave because so many of us have felt it and so few of us feel able to say it and it is just, It's, I don't want to say it's normal, but I think it's understandable. And I think the worst part was that the only person that I knew that could make me feel better was the only person that I couldn't talk to. And I just thought, how fucked up and cruel is that? That the one person that I need is, is the person I haven't got. Like, I think that person has now become my mum. Um, and. God, my poor mum, I'm offering her about 10 times a day. But in that moment, my mum couldn't make me feel better, my dad couldn't make me feel better, my cat couldn't make me feel better, my friends couldn't make me feel better. And people would say, what can I do? And I would think, Bring him back. Yeah. Bring him back. And actually there is a real kind of wisdom in that, isn't there? That there is nothing that you can do to make me feel better. But then that makes, that made me feel so hopeless of will I ever feel better? I think that's why coming on here and the people that have come onto this podcast and shared their stories, what you were doing is you're offering this little glimmer of hope at the end because you're saying, okay, I felt so awful that I didn't want to be here. 18 months down the line. I, I want to be here. Does that make sense? So you, you'll, you'll say, cause if somebody who's not a widow said to you at the time, you'll get through this, you'll be all right, you'd just be like, fuck off. No, I won't. No, I won't. I'm going to be miserable forever. Fuck you. But I don't think I even, I never believed that I could be happy, but I never believed that I'd want to be No. You And I am happy. don't you? I am happy and I like my life and I have joy in every single day now. And I have bad days and I have days when I miss him more than the everyday miss him. But I am happy. And I didn't believe that, yeah, that I would ever feel that or want to feel that. And it's quite, you have to also understand that, and it's something that only really happens when you go through something like this, is that you can be really, really sad and happy at the same time. And I couldn't understand that. I felt that, and you'll see a lot of memes and stuff saying, oh, you know, your, the weight of your grief is the weight of your love. And I, yes. But you almost then think, oh, but am I supposed to be really, really sad all the time, 24 hours a day, as a demonstration of my grief? And actually, that's not true, because they loved us, and they wouldn't want us to be miserable. And I think having your beautiful little Poppy must mean, much like me and my kids, you don't want that for them. You want them to realize that you can go through something awful and you can come out fighting and I know, I know my, particularly my older two are really proud of me because they've seen the crumble and the rise back up again, they've seen a lot of messiness in between and I haven't been a perfect mother at all, but I have loved them and I've shown them that, It, you know, you can get knocked down by the thing you fear the most and get back up again. And I think Poppy will look up to you so much as she gets older. I just remember probably a few weeks before I had her thinking, I don't want her to ever say, my daddy died and my mummy was unhappy for the rest Yeah, no, I get that completely. Yeah, the idea that my dad died and then my mum span off the rails and the rest of my childhood was shit. And that, that was absolutely what I did not want for my kids. And when I got very, um, drinking became much more problematic. And I realized that what I was doing was creating that reality. You know, they did have a mom that was messy, that was forgetting things, that was hung over all the time. And actually now what they've got is still a kind of fairly messy mom, but I'm not hung over, which is always a plus. Um, and it's. It's making that choice not to crumble, because we all want to at times, of course we do. We want to lie in bed, pull the day over our heads and, you know, swig from a bottle of gin. And when you have a baby or a small child, you don't have that luxury. And I think it does save you. I think this is, it can tip you to over the brink on occasion. I just imagine the Broken Knights nearly did you in a few times. But it's, It's knowing that there's somebody that needs you for everything. And if you're not there, they have nothing. And I think there's surviving and then there's thriving. And I think you can choose to thrive. Were it is a conscious mindset and I said that to new people that I've come across who since me have lost their partner while they're pregnant. And I said, you, you have a choice. It will be the hardest choice you will ever make. But if you want to be happy and you want to live your life, you have to choose that for your child. It will not just come natural for me anyway. It didn't come naturally. I was. the most negative, pessimistic person you have ever come across before Paul died. He was a positive one. We balanced each other out. I would always look for the negatives, moan about everything. I still moan about everything, but, and he just went through life so happy. I remember him saying to me once, I said to him, I feel really sad, blah, blah, blah. He went, I don't think I've ever really felt that sad. And at Oh, how lovely. was like, that's really helpful. But yeah. And I, I've said to people, If you, and I, I sort of said to myself, right, he doesn't get to live his life anymore, he doesn't get to be that person, so I have to do that now, and I am so lucky that I get to live my life, and that I have, hopefully, many more years ahead of me, but that was a choice, and it is a choice, even still, every single day, that I get up and I think, nope, I'm going to put my positive pants on. Because otherwise, I tried the laying in bed and rotting, and No good comes of it, does it? And the other day, on Friday, Friday, I went down like a sack of spuds. I couldn't tell you why. I just, I got up to do the school run, went back to bed, and I now know that partly it's, um, my PTSD, the grief, partly my neurodiversity. There's many, many reasons why that can happen to me. If I take that one day and I go to bed, everything's better. If I try and push through it and try and be everything to everybody all the time, I'll go down harder for longer. And nobody needs that. I had it last week, I, um, I heard, saw a clip on TikTok, um, of a funeral director saying, um, sounded such a passing comment, and I don't want to say it on here, and anyone else have the same reaction, but said that after a post mortem, Your organs aren't put back where they came from, they're all just put in your chest cavity. And I thought, my god, that it hit me, 18 months later, the thought of his brain being in his chest and all not in the right place. And I just, I really didn't like it. And so Poppy was at nursery, so I went to bed for the rest of the day, and I watched TV in bed. And then half past three came and I thought, right, I've got to get up. I've got to go and get her. But yeah, like you say, if I'd have sort of just left that and pushed through, Yeah. I suffer really badly with intrusive thoughts that I could be driving around down the road. And then my brain will go, oh, you're going to the supermarket. Paul can't go to the supermarket. Paul can't go to the supermarket because he got hit by a lorry. He got hit by a lorry. So this happened to his body and then that happened to his body. And I spiral and spiral and spiral unless I give myself that time. And my therapist taught me, set yourself a two minute timer. And you think about this for two minutes and then you have to move on. Yeah. I've heard something like that before as well with the big grief as well. Like allow yourself the length of a song to just howl and then you get your shit together and you get back with your life and What? I was, oh god, I had a burning question for you and it's popped out of my head. How annoying. Ah, yes, I know. You mentioned that you, um, have spoken to other people who've lost their partners when they've been pregnant. Is that a specific group or support group? So, um, I, Haven't found anybody through, so I'm part of WAI, um, which have helped me a lot, and there is a subgroup in there, um, Widowed Whilst Pregnant. I'm the most recent member. Um, there are people before me, not many of us, I think there must be maybe 30 of us in the group. But that's quite nice. I like a small widow group. Yeah, it's not very active, but it was really helpful in the beginning for me to just kind of say, even things like, What do I put in my hospital bag? Yeah. Do you, do you know Jess, Jess Haslam Bancroft? That's how I found this podcast. I was going to say, because she, and she's wonderful, isn't she? searched for anybody else that this had happened to and, yeah, the description of, of one podcast episode came up and I just thought, oh, it's not just me. Yeah. And there is so much power in that. And actually, that's something that I don't want to tell you how to raise your daughter. Please, please don't listen to me. But one of the things I've picked up on through some work that I've done talking to people who lost their apparent young, I've spoken to people as young as, um, 14 up to adulthood. And, um, One of the general consensus seems to be that they, the isolation is the really damaging thing. This feeling of not, not knowing anybody else like them. And you've just mentioned then about, you know, Oh, there's somebody else that this has happened to. So one of the things I found really helpful, and it kind of happened organically by having widowed friends for children, that my kids have grown up around other kids who've lost a parent. At one point, one of my kids said to me, do you know anybody whose husband hasn't died? I was like, I'm not cursed. Um, But I think that's something to bear in mind as well when you lose a parent is that feeling of not knowing anybody else like you. So that's, um, it's just something I, I'm randomly spouting off here. But yeah, I, I did, as you were talking, I was thinking about Jess's yeah. And, um, like you say, it sort of just does happen organically, doesn't it? It's almost like you become some sort of magnet, don't you? And then people find you, but mine has been TikTok. So I somehow found myself on some sort of widow algorithm. And, um, you know, it's been about three people that I've, um, who are also about my age, um, whose husbands or partners have died when they were pregnant. And it was really important to me because you get so many messages, don't you saying, Oh, my husband died. My children were 15 and I'm 10 years down the line. But in those early stages, you just, I just needed someone who was like me. I didn't want someone who had had five years of making memories. I needed someone who hadn't even had five minutes to make those memories. And so I just sort of reached out and said, I'm 18 months down the line. If, or when you ever decide you need someone I'm here, but I get it because I couldn't relate to the people whose husbands or wives had been ill. And I was almost cross with almost jealous? Yeah. Same. Yeah. And that's a dirty little confession, isn't it? Because you don't want to be jealous of someone that lost their, their partner to cancer. But you, you're like, but you've got to say goodbye. and you knew. I was so naive. I, the day before, not the day before, maybe about three days before Paul had died, I posted on my Instagram, it'd been our six month wedding anniversary, and I posted six months down forever to go. Ooh. And then about two weeks before that I'd posted announced that we were pregnant and I'd said the best chapter of my life is just beginning. Oh, couldn't you just treat yourself? I found my New Year's Eve post from that. Yeah. You know, my family is complete. I've got a really good feeling about this year. And you're like, oh, you arsehole. So I'm very cautious what I post now on anniversaries. yeah, It's hoping we all survive. Sophie, it's been really, really remarkable to talk to you today. You've been especially, and I don't want to wang on about your age, but the fact that you are so young and you're so wise and you're so, I don't know, well, Balance. It's like you've taken this awful trauma and you've been angry and you've been, you've raged and you've cried and you've done the things that you need to do, but you've also, as we've just talked about, made the choice and the choice that you've made is that you and your daughter are going to have a good life. And I genuinely believe you are. I have every faith in you and I really want to see a picture of Poppy. Will you send me one after? Yeah. So thank you ever so much for coming on today. It's been, yeah, every story I hear is just incredible. And the thought of, of you having to go to those hospital appointments without Paul by your side, and the fact that you are so, you've dug so deep and you're giving so much love to your daughter and you've managed to find joy again, I think is utterly, utterly admirable. And I wish you both lots and lots of love as you continue to heal. Thank you. And to anybody that's been listening to today and has been affected by the episode, please know that you can reach out to me any time, and I'm sure that Sophie would be happy to answer any questions if you've got any. But for now, all of you out there, lots and lots of love, and I'll be back with you soon.