Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:02

Hello and a very warm welcome back to Widowed AF. You're here with me. I'm your host, Rosie Gill-Moss, and I'm your constant on this journey. My guests come onto the podcast and they share their stories and it has an enormous impact on the outside world. We're seeing that, hearing that in, in, in messages, in responses that we're getting. But what I don't have on this show, a huge amount of, is blokes. And I have a real life man today. So welcome to the podcast, Mark Hazel. Hello.

Mark Heazle: 0:32

morning. Thanks for having me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:34

Did I say your name right?

Mark Heazle: 0:35

Mark Easel. Yeah, that's right.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:36

I'm so bad at pronunciations. I have to write things phonetically and things. So, you were inspired by listening to Garant in episode ten of season two. So, I shall make sure he knows that, because this is the kind of knock on effect it has. Somebody comes on and tells their story, and it sort of prompts other people to want to come and share thoughts. Yep, and share theirs. Sorry, I'll, I'll learn to speak hopefully at some point in this episode. So, Mark, tell me, tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell me about your wife, Sharon, and I guess we'll get to the, the nitty gritty in the process.

Mark Heazle: 1:08

Yeah, sure. So, yeah. My name's Mark. I'm now, well, nearly 44 years old. We live in Norfolk with a family. I've been widowed since 2018. My wife Sharon died March 2018 after living with a very rare form of cancer for several years. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:29

I noticed in your application that you, that you were in March 2018, Widow, and I am as well. What, what date did Sharon die? Thought

Mark Heazle: 1:36

uh, 14th of March

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:37

12. Way, grief twins. What kind of cancer did she have?

Mark Heazle: 1:43

Um, so she had a type of cancer called neuroendocrine cancer, um, which is very rare. And, um, the, the easiest way to describe it or to describe the cancer, but, um, most kind of reference points that people know is the same type of cancer that, that Steve Jobs from, from Apple had, um, and that, that he died from. Um, so essentially it's a, a kind of a, a very rare form of cancer that sort of attacks parts of the fund, the neuroendocrine, uh, Cy.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:08

And is that, sorry for my ignorance, is that, would that be brain? Is that, and I'm

Mark Heazle: 2:12

No, um, so the, in terms of diagnosis, it's, it's some of the symptoms that Sharon had when she was, was diagnosed, um, would point to, um, a tumor on the pituitary gland in her brain, um, when they did scans, et cetera, um, they, they actually discovered that the tumor wasn't in her pituitary gland, so they had to kind of do lots of, um, pretty invasive kind of, um, biopsies, et cetera. And they finally found some some tumors in her liver, um, which kind of they weren't the primaries, they were secondaries. Um, but what the tumors were doing, um, were, um, producing, uh, a chemical, um, so they're functioning tumors in terms of the medical term for the tumor that produces, um, a chemical, telling her, um, adrenal glands to produce cortisol. Um, and this high levels of cortisol were eventually kind of white. The kind of the factor that allowed doctors to kind of diagnose the cancer that she had.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:10

gosh, I've never heard of this. And I realize I have rather rocketed you through to cancer from the beginning. So tell me, go back and tell me how did you and Sharon meet? Tell me a little bit of, a bit of a romance,

Mark Heazle: 3:20

Bit of romance, yeah, so we were working for the same local authority in Leicestershire back in year 2006 when we met. I'd been there for a couple of years, Sharon had been there for a little bit longer than I had. Um, I'd split up with a, with a partner kind of that summer. Um, and she'd separated from her husband, uh, sort of that, that year as well. Um, and it's kind of massive cliche, to be honest. Um, we actually got together our, um, works

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:46

but Christmas party,

Mark Heazle: 3:48

Yep. Um, so yeah, that was, that was December, 2000, 2006. So, um, it was a bit strange. It's kind of keep quiet for a little while. Um, Chad was a senior manager, a lot more

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:58

was you your boss?

Mark Heazle: 3:59

than I was. It was, she wasn't my boss. No, but, um, she was a kind of a head of service. So, um, Yeah the senior manager I was kind of like a very nice a junior member of staff at the council um and so yeah we had to keep that quiet for a little bit but um and with the big age gap as well so she was 10 years older than me. Um, so yeah, which, um, which, yeah, it was, was, was a lot of fun at the time, it was sort of, um, sort of, um, yeah, a lot of my mates thought I was crazy, I think my parents thought I was crazy as well, um, Sharon

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:27

children as well, yeah.

Mark Heazle: 4:28

yeah, so three, three daughters from a previous marriage with her, with her ex, so, um, my, my three stepdaughters, um, Kira, Georgia and Ellie, um, so they were kind of, I think Georgia was the youngest, she was kind of six or seven, I think that's when Sharon and I got together, Ellie the eldest, I think she was, she was 10 at the time, so, um, Yeah, kind of a crazy, crazy few years at the very start. So yeah, December 2006, we met, I moved in with Sharon, uh, the following summer. So summer of 2000. Um, and seven, um, yeah, moved in with her and the girls, which kind of was a big, um, you can imagine a big kind

Rosie Gill-Moss: 5:04

of fire, I'm thinking.

Mark Heazle: 5:05

for me. Um, uh, and then, yeah, things moved fairly quickly after that point. So, um, yeah, after moving in that summer, um, we decided that we would start a family of our own, um, which, um, I was, I was quite surprised that, that, um, that Sharon was, was, was happy to do, to be honest. I think we, we had that conversation very early on in our relationship. I always kind of knew that I wanted children, um, but I said to her, you know, quite early on that, you know, if she doesn't, then we'd probably, you know, respectfully say, say goodbye, uh, with, with no hard feelings. But, um, a little bit to my surprise, she said, she said she wouldn't, um, be adverse to that. So, um, there was only one condition, um, on it, which was that that happened before she was 40. Um, so when we, when we met, I was, um, I was 26, Sharon was 36. So, um, I think she had something in her head that sort of like said that she needed to, to, to not have kids after the age of 40. So, um, that was the only condition.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:00

I

Mark Heazle: 6:02

was the only condition. So, um, yeah, after moving in summer 2007, um, Sharon felt pregnant kind of later on that year, um, and our son arrived, Albie, um, following, following July, so July, 2009, um, Albie was born. Um, Which she said was that was the period after that was kind of one of the happiest periods of her life and she was able to take a decent amount of time off work and just, um, yeah, just love being at home with, uh, with Albie, um, and then I don't quite know how this happened, but, um, Sharon felt kind of pregnant quite quickly again after that,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:35

mean, that's another lesson. We can, I can send you some leaflets.

Mark Heazle: 6:40

um, and then, yeah, so, um, Alla was born the following July, um, so there's, um, the 1st of July in 2009, um, so there's about 11 months between Albie

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:52

So, you have five children at this point between you. And I'm, I'm a step parent. My alive husband is a step parent. We know that's not for the faint hearted. So how did that dynamic work with having two small children and then the older girl? Did they like having little siblings?

Mark Heazle: 7:11

Um, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't challenges um, along the way. Um, especially kind of with the, the, the, the eldest daughter yeah, Ellie, um, who I think at the time um, yeah was, was struggling I think still with the fact that, you know, her parents had split up and and that was kind of You know, weighing quite heavily on her. So there was a lot of change for them, for the girls, especially in the, that, you know, couple of years, which, you know, is a relatively short space of time. So looking back, um, you can fully understand why there would be kind of, um, yeah, challenges and a little bit of upset, but. Um, you know, it seems like a long time ago now, but it's, you know, all five of them now have a, have a beautiful relationship, uh, between them. So it's sort of what they've got now, I think it was probably worth the heartache and the, the hassle that we had when, when, you know, how we all were born and the girls were, were still quite young.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:03

And actually, if you, I've, I've, cause I always think this, I think I made, you know, their lives more difficult. And that, I think overall, I mean, John and I have been together now for five, four and a half, five years. And actually, what I'm seeing is the sibling jealousies, the rivalries, the falling outs are no different to that in a nuclear family. It still happens. So I, and I think what you create in a blended family is this, I don't know, I think it sounds a bit wanky, but it's kind of magical, isn't it? Once you get it working, like some days you're like, and other days it's just incredible because you think I've created this unit. I've, yeah, I could, I could talk about step parenting and the joys and the challenges that it brings for hours, but anyway, this is not, this is not Um, so at what point In this process, in your relationship, did Sharon find out that she was poorly?

Mark Heazle: 8:58

so it's a couple of years after that we, I grew up in Norfolk, um, and wanted to, but effectively wanted to, to, to, to, to move back to Norfolk. Um, so we, we made a decision that, um, I'd start looking for work. Um, In Norfolk and I was lucky enough to get offered a job and sort of back end of kind of 2009 so all it was only sort of, you know, five, six months old at that point, so I got a job and as I worked my notice out, Sharon and the girls and the kids moved over. Um, so while I was working my, my notice out, I kind of was, was effectively working from a couple of Leicestershire to, you know, to stay for three days. Um, yeah, and that's all, yeah, that was kind of back end of 2009, early 2010. We probably, Sharon then was lucky enough to get a job in Norfolk as well. So the job, the day I started my, my new job in Norfolk was the day Sharon went back to work in Leicestershire Orla. Um, so we, we, she, we kind of swapped roles. So

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:01

so ships in the night.

Mark Heazle: 10:02

yeah, a little bit. So she'd, um, she'd come home on this kind of Thursday night, have Friday working from home, weekend at home, work from home on Monday and then go back to Leicestershire, um, on a Tuesday morning for three days. So. I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:15

Did you still have family in Norfolk to help with the

Mark Heazle: 10:17

Yeah. Yeah. So that was part of the rationale for doing that is that, um, my parents, um, yeah, a little bit younger than Sharon's parents obviously with the age gap between her parents were quite a bit older as well. So lovely people, but they were never going to be kind of hands on grandparents in the same way that my parents wanted to be. So, um, yeah, part of the rationale was to, to have. You know, the kids grow up closer to their grandparents. My sister as well. My sister's only a year younger than me, but she'd, um, she'd had a baby as well just between Albie and Orla. So it was nice to have kind of persons growing up, you know, exactly. So my

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:52

I bet in hindsight, you're glad you were there now as well.

Mark Heazle: 10:56

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, yeah, so we, we moved, um, and then it's probably kind of 2010, 2011, things kind of started to kind of, to, to sort of, you know, a few kind of odd happenings with, with, with Sharon's health that, that started to change. So, um, she was struggling to sleep. Um, she was, you know, getting by on sort of, um, three, four hours sleep a night. Um, she was probably having problems with her joints and sort of struggling to get out up the stairs and sort of out in the bath on her own. Um, so her, you know, physical appearance was changing. She put a bit of weight on that sort of, she wasn't able to shift in the same way that she had been able to with them, you know, with the children post, you know, post giving birth. Multiple trips to the doctors, um, I think, you know, she, she, she got a job as a, um, assistant director at a housing association, so quite a stressful job, um, I think one doctor said it was kind of work stress, another kind of suggested that it was postnatal depression, um, another

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:55

I'm wondering like menopause as well, whether that was mentioned, early

Mark Heazle: 11:58

it wasn't at the time, no, but sort of, you know, you know, the doctor said, you know, you, you, you're nearly 40, you know, you're not going to lose weight in the same way that, um, that you lost

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:06

the scrap heap now.

Mark Heazle: 12:08

Yeah, exactly. So, um, there was multiple trips to the doctor and Sharon sort of, you know, I know my body. I know something is right here. It's more than just kind of those things.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:18

So she really had to advocate for herself here.

Mark Heazle: 12:20

she did. Yeah. Um, and it was, I think it was probably the third or fourth trip to the doctor that one of the, that she saw kind of said, look, um, there's a, there's a syndrome type of cancer here that is really rare. But we went all test for it. Um, and it, it goes back to this kind of, um, Cushing syndrome is, is kind of where the, the, the body has too much cortisol. Um, and the doctor said, oh, well, I'd quite like to, to test for that. Um, and it happened, and when they did the, the, the blood said cortisol levels with the, through the roof. Um, so kind of, which is why she wasn't sleeping. Cortisols, the, the stress hormone that kicks in with the kind of the flight off. You know, fight or flight response that the people have.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:00

And it's something that many in our tribe will have experienced, is these enormous spikes in cortisol causing sleepless nights. And so it can be caused by stress, but I'm assuming this is on a much bigger scale

Mark Heazle: 13:13

Yeah, so, had, had, you know, most people's, as you said, those spikes kind of, I think, on a scale, I want Dot to explain it to us, but if you have a scale of kind of between 1 and 100, most people's will kind of move between that 1 and 100 threat. Sharon's was at like 2, 000.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:28

Oh,

Mark Heazle: 13:28

So, I mean, he's in the thousands. It was ridiculous. Um, as I said earlier, the issue that she had, the tumors that they eventually found in her, um, in her liver were producing, um, another hormone that was telling her the adrenal glands to produce cortisol. So her body was effectively producing cortisol 24 hours a day, um, which is why it had the impact on her kind of the brain fog that she had, um, the issue with her joints, and yet not being able to, not being able to sleep.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:55

And was she anxious as well? Because I'm thinking cortisol can make you very anxious and irritable. I mean, I don't like to speak ill

Mark Heazle: 14:02

Yeah, yeah, I just, I mean, that, that was kind of a really difficult time for us because, you know, pre diagnosis, life was incredibly stressful, um, and that, you know, there were, it became quite a difficult person to live with at that point because of that, that, that stress and that irritability. Um, that, you know, when you look back, it's sort of, there was nothing we could do, but it, it, it did put a real strain on us as a, as a couple and, and just kind of the whole family, I think.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:30

Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, it's not common, thankfully, but it does happen when people are sick and they, they change all recognition in many ways. And it's, it's one of those kind of taboo subjects. Like I said, Oh, I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but actually there will be people listening and people who have experienced this. And it happens, it happens, and I think it's something that we don't want to shy away from too much, because the people who are supporting somebody who's poorly, that's, they're living with somebody that is different to the person they know, and that takes an enormous toll.

Mark Heazle: 15:07

Yeah. And that, that was exactly how it, how it felt at the time. That sort of, you know, that the person that, that she'd become because of her illness wasn't the person that, that I'd met and fallen up.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:17

you don't even know why either. Yeah, yeah,

Mark Heazle: 15:20

it did put a lot of strain on our relationship. There was a couple of points where I'm not sure, probably, you know, I didn't think we might not survive as a, as a couple. Um, but yeah, we did eventually. I think that the diagnosis probably came out that kind of that, that really crucial point for us.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:35

yeah, sometimes you just need a why, don't you?

Mark Heazle: 15:38

Exactly.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:39

So, she has obviously not been feeling well, has had to go back to the doctor three or four times. And then, was it a sort of out of the blue drop of the C word? Mm hmm. Mm

Mark Heazle: 15:50

Um, it was, um, so I think, Because of the, the, the complexity and the rarity of the, of the cancer, we weren't, Sharon wasn't treated initially in Moorford. We had it diagnosed here. And they said, we haven't got an expertise here to, to be able to, to, to, to look after you. So, um, we, Sharon was referred to Allenbrook's in Cambridge, um, which was 19 minute drive from, from where we live. So, um, I spent a lot of time, you know, we spent a lot of time on the road between Norwich and Cambridge. Um, the, yeah, possible appointments, et cetera. Um, and so, yeah, it, when they, initially, so the, the, the Cushing syndrome is normally caused by a sort of a, a, a small tumor on the pituitary gland in the brain. So when they, they scanned her head and, and the pituitary gland was normal, it was a case of, well, crikey, where do we go now? Um, so she spent, um, she spent about, kind of, three months in Addenbrookes. Initially, while they worked out, where the, where the cortisol was coming from and what was causing that. So eventually they got sort of, um, as far down as, as a liver, um, a decent liver biopsies and found some tumours, um, in there. And once I knew what they were dealing with, then it was a case of kind of, yeah, telling us what to, what to expect. Um, and sort of, yeah, it came out of the blue. But I think that, I think the biggest shock for us Not necessarily as when they said, okay, you have a rare form of cancer, but for us, when they said you have a rare form of cancer for which there is no cure, we can treat you and we can, we can slow it, but we can't cure it. Um, so I think that was kind of, I think, you know, we know so many other people that have kind of had cancer that sort of get cured. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:38

fairly young, fit, well.

Mark Heazle: 17:40

Yeah. So that was kind of our, our initial thinking where we, we knew what it was that I gave, that there will be a cure. Um, and we were all, you know, channel we, we'll work through it. But, um, yeah, when the, the doctor said that unfortunately that it is so rare, you know, the, the, the signs that, you know, the research isn't well as, you know, established as there's a lot of other cancer, so. Um, we can treat you, we can, we can, we can slow things down to stop the progression, but we can't completely cure what's going on. So, I mean, they did some things to kind of help. So, um, cortisol was produced by her adrenal glands, so they were removed. Um, so, so, so they're kind of like golf ball signs. It's on each side of the body. So, um, they were taken out, which meant that the insurant had to kind of, um, take tablets every day to effectively replace the cortisol that our body was, was, uh, should be producing. Um, but, you know, the things like adrenaline that would be produced by the adrenal glands. She couldn't produce naturally on her own, so I had to be trained, you know, if there was a car accident or she'd broken a bone or something like that, where normally your body would produce adrenaline to stop you going into shock, I had to train, to be trained how to administer a jab to her in that, that circumstance, if something happened, to keep her from going, to stop her from going into shock.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:55

So you're, I mean, we talk about people becoming, you know, armchair oncologists, but you're now having to learn to administer emergency life saving medication as well. This is quite a

Mark Heazle: 19:04

yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:06

Now, I'm just going to draw you back to three months in hospital. Was she actually admitted for the full three months?

Mark Heazle: 19:12

She was, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:13

That must have been incredibly difficult. How, how were the kids during this?

Mark Heazle: 19:18

you know, it's just one of those times where I think you probably recognize this. It gets so stressful that you can't, you don't really remember much about it. It's just kind of, it's all a,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:27

get on with it.

Mark Heazle: 19:27

it's all a blur. Um, and so, I mean, the children were still very young by this time. It's sort of, you know, Albie and all, they were kind of what, sort of two and three, I think. The girls were then probably just coming into sort of, you know, high school age, um, early teens. Um, so, I think we, we were lucky that we had, um, My parents, very close, um, played an enormous role, and they still do, um, in our lives, um, so it was a case of me just trying to juggle everything,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:58

Mm. Were your work helpful?

Mark Heazle: 20:00

yeah, work with, work with Brilliant, to be honest, and I think even, even sort of through that period, and after when Sharon died as well, um, I couldn't, I couldn't have asked for anything, a few more from them, to be honest, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:11

when did you, I mean, I'm thinking about the older children here. Um, when did you tell them that this was looking quite serious?

Mark Heazle: 20:20

um, so we, with the girls, we were, we were, we were honest quite, quite early on, um, we

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:25

it's always the best policy, isn't it?

Mark Heazle: 20:27

Yeah. Um, so we kind of, yeah, we told them that, that Sharon had cancer and we're honest about the fact that there is no cure, but, you know, there will be treatment that, that will hopefully, you know, slow things down. Um, so yeah, that we're honest up front without the, the alion order, we, we couldn't be, they were too young.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:45

No, no, of course. And what, what, I saw this bit of a tough question, but did they give you a sort of rough expectancy? Were you told that you might have months, years? What was the sort of prognosis? I know that often doctors are reluctant to say.

Mark Heazle: 21:00

They are reluctant to say, um, and, you know, looking back, I think we do your own research and you look at kind of five year survival rate. So we knew that the five years survival rate was going to be about 50%. Um, but then you had doctors that kind of, you know, would run a positive side of the same, but a lot of people have this cancer will die for other things with this cancer rather than from it. Um, so,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:24

so there's some hope here.

Mark Heazle: 21:25

yeah, it was a bit of hope, um, involved, but, um, yeah. Yeah, she's saying their support groups, et cetera. So, you know, Sharon joined, um, uh, yeah, a, a few of those for, for people with, with, with that type of cancer. So we'd, you know, we'd go to kind of regular regional meetings and people would understand better the kind of the treatments, um, that people going through. Um, so it's, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:48

So she sort of sought out a, a, her, a community and, and was quite proactive in, in seeking support. But she must have been absolutely, I mean, you both must have been terrified, no doubt of that. But one of the things that I, as a mum, you know, my biggest fear, and particularly since Ben died, is of leaving my kids. That's making me go all goose bumpy now. And if, I know that it must have been terrifying for her, but how, How did she cope with that? How did she, how did she manage that knowledge that she probably wasn't going to see her children grow up?

Mark Heazle: 22:24

Yeah, I mean, that, that was the hardest bit for Sharon, um, was, you know, I, I didn't see a, she was very so stoic. She didn't get upset very often. Um, but when. It was, it was the kind of the things with the kids that she knew that she was going to perhaps miss that is when she, she got upset, so you know, things like that. You know, big birthdays, 18th's, 21's, you know, graduations, engagements, proms, exams, all those kind of those big life moments that kind of you look forward to as a parent, um, that was the thing that weighed heaviest on her was, was, was, was missing those, I think. So, um, the way she dealt with that was, was purely, I think, to the ones that she was around for. Was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:07

them really

Mark Heazle: 23:07

to make, yeah, make 100 percent the most of those opportunities, um, that she had, so, um, I mean, it's one of those kind of, it's just like, yeah, just, just time with the children. One of the, like, the cruelest ironies, I guess, is that, um, we were quite fortunate in a way that, that Sharon's employer, at the time, had a, had a, income protection scheme.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:27

Oh wow,

Mark Heazle: 23:28

though Sharon effectively, once she finished work, um, she never went back and we were still provided with 75 percent of her salary, which probably kept us afloat to be honest. I think at the time I wouldn't survive to survive as a family just on, on, on my salary at the time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:42

and it's a very real pressure and fear, isn't it? Like, I mean, we talk about life insurance, which some people don't have, some people do. But there's also things like, um, income protection and critical illness cover. And so many of us never even think to take that, you know, that extra bit of money on the policy every month. But if you can't work because you're ill, it could be years. then this will give you

Mark Heazle: 24:05

ended up being, being, you know, I'm sure I didn't go back to work. Um, But from the time she was diagnosed in sort of late 2011, um, until she, until she died. So we had her income covered. And I said, the thing about the irony of that is that, you know, Alla when she was, was diagnosed, Alla was probably two and a half, and we were both, They hadn't started school yet, nursery and stuff like that, but so Sharon got to spend a whole load more time with the kids that ordinarily she wouldn't have done, um, because, you know, you'd be juggling work and, and, and life. So, um, I look back at sort of, you know, a bit of a type of running joke in our family that all Sharon and all I did was just go for coffee and cake every day of the week because that's what they did because, you know, when Albie started school, um, we still had another year to go at home before, um, before she started. Um, yeah, that time, I think, is kind of priceless, isn't it? Because ordinarily you'd be juggling work, the position that Sharon's in, she was probably going to be working 45, 50 hours a week. Um, so to have that time with them,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:09

It's one of those sort of mixed blessings, isn't it? Because Ben was, he was very much a family man, and he had a business in France, and um, he'd go, he'd work a week abroad, three weeks at home. So he was school runs, you know, he was there in the midst of it all, and I'm eternally grateful for that. But I also felt that perhaps the gap was bigger for the children because a lot of dads and parents in general will have to work long hours. They'll come home at bedtime. So, yes, I'm really grateful for it. But I also felt that real, like, you know, they had him so much and now he's gone. But I think. It's that cliche, isn't there, that nobody on their deathbed says, I wish I'd earned more money. I wish I'd worked more hours. It's always, I wish I'd spent more time with the people I loved. So for her to have that opportunity, I don't know if I like that word in this situation, but for her to be able to not have to worry about finances and to be able to just enjoy the children while they were little. We talk about sometimes there being a few gifts in, in the, in cancer. Maybe that's a little gift. I don't know, but it, it, I'm, I'm glad that she got that time with them. And, and actually she did, she exceeded expectations and she got seven years.

Mark Heazle: 26:21

Uh, yeah, not far off. Um, so yeah, so I, I think we, we used to, between us, we used to use the phrase the, um, the best before date, which, um, is probably a bit more between the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:32

I love it.

Mark Heazle: 26:33

if you take that kind of, um, cue with between us. Yeah. So

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:38

I like that. So presumably the way you've described Sharon is that she was quite, she was quite active and able to sort of continue her life to a certain extent. She was able to spend time with the kids. At what point did, did the illness really start to take over and you see a big deterioration?

Mark Heazle: 26:57

I think, I mean, if, if you, if you, if you to have met Charra during her illness up until the last couple of months, you wouldn't have known she was ill. Um, the, the type of chemo she was having wasn't the sort that sort of affected her hair. So outwardly she looked. Um, very healthy. Um, and yeah, it's, it's kind of, I guess, that's quite a kind of cruel thing as well that she was so ill, but looked so well. Um, and it was probably only until the last, I want to say the last four months of her life, really, where, where, where things kind of did progress very, very quickly. Um, one of Sharon's dreams, we, we, we holidayed a lot in, in France and Europe when the kids were growing up. So one of Sharon's dreams was to buy, buy a house in France, which we actually did in 2017. We got, we put the bullet in and brought a house, which

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:51

Oh, wow. Where in France?

Mark Heazle: 27:54

Um, so central France, not far from, uh, the closest main city is Limoges. So kind of right in the middle, three hours south of Paris. Um, and we spent, so that, we 2017. Yeah. Um, so we, with that, that year we spent as much time as we possibly could. Um, it was our farmhouse, um, that we kind of, we, we, you know, needed a bit of work to do. So we did that ourselves and she put a load of

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:17

was just going to say, did you do this yourselves? This is

Mark Heazle: 28:20

with, yeah, a little bit of help from, from, from professionals, but otherwise we, we did it all kind of, we, we did it all ourselves. So, um, yeah. We spent a week down there. So we got the keys in August of that year, spent quite a lot of time, I think three, three weeks there that summer, but then we went, we went down again at October half term, um, the four of us. Um, some of the pictures from, from that week, it is just Sharon, she looks kind of perfectly, um, healthy, um, you wouldn't know, sort of, you know, she was, she was ill, um, but if you fast forward a couple of months to, to Christmas, Um, there's some pictures at the chow at Christopher's and she's lost a lot of weight and looks, looks very frail. Um, and then, yeah, forward on to, to March, you know, frail as still. Um, so it was kind of, I guess, between sort of November, um, and the March really where things started to, to, to move quite quickly.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:15

And during this time, was Sharon quite open about her diagnosis? Had she sort of talked to friends and family about it? I know she's, you said she talked to support groups, but I'm just, I'm, I'm just thinking living with a terminal diagnosis, but looking to the outside world, like you're perfectly healthy. That's a very strange place to be, a very scary place to be.

Mark Heazle: 29:37

It is. Um, and she was, she was incredibly open, um, massively. I mean, sort of, there was, we, we, we started a, a charity, um, to try and raise funds for, um, for research into the type of cancer she had. And we, we got linked up with a, with another. kind of bigger, uh, bigger campaign. So she would kind of, you know, hudged post fundraising events, et cetera, that sort of, um, that were linked to this, this, this, this bigger campaign. So she was always kind of quite up front. She joined, you know, as I said, the support groups. Um, there was another group in, in, uh, in Norfolk Rosemary group, uh, which is for women living with kind of secondary cancer. Um, that she was a, she was a big part of as well. Um, one of the youngest in the group actually, sort of, you know, because of the age profile of that particular group. So, um, it was, yeah, it, it, she was, she was always very open. Um, but I think, yeah, a couple of people saw, saw Sharon at Christmas that year that sort of hadn't seen her for a little while and kind

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:33

Bit of a shock.

Mark Heazle: 30:35

yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:35

Yeah. And what about you in this time? Did you get any support? Were you having any counselling or anything like that?

Mark Heazle: 30:41

Yeah, I was something going back to my, my employer being really good. Um, we had a kind of a employee assistance scheme at work that offered counseling. So, um, yeah, I went to see a little lady, um, lady, she was a lovely lady that lives sort of, um, a few miles from, from where we were and she had a beautiful cottage in the country. Um, I, I, I saw her for the first time, actually not long after Sharon's diagnosis, just to kind of think about how I, um, how I coped with what was coming, um, and then I had a bit of a gaff for a few years and I saw her again, um, after Sharon died as well, um, and her work paid for all of that. So

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:19

I mean, I know the work paying is, is a really helpful factor because a lot of people are put off by the potentially cost, the high cost of counselling. But I'm also thinking you should take some credit for this because not many people, and particularly, I hate to gender stereotype, but not many men are proactive in looking after their mental health. So I think the reason that you're sat here today talking to me And, you know, on your feet and functioning is probably because of how taking responsibility at this point. And actually it's something that John did as well. He sought counseling very quickly after Sarah died and sort of threw himself into it as I sort of chitted about for three years refusing to open Pandora's box. And I know that it very much delayed my grieving.

Mark Heazle: 31:59

yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:01

Now let's go A little further forward, so at Christmas, Sharon is starting to look and presumably feel, um, less like herself. She's starting to get quite poorly. Um, what was the next part of, of the, the voyage?

Mark Heazle: 32:18

Yeah. So, um, kind of starting around Christmas, she, she, she'd pick up regular chest infections, um, and because of the chemo, et cetera, that became quite difficult for her, um, for her to shift. Um, so what would happen is that normally she'd go into hospital for. A week or 10 days, they'd look after her, they'd get a pump full of the antibiotics, she'd get rid of the chest infection, um, and she'd come home, um, I think she went in for a couple of days between Christmas and New Year, um, so that would have been 2018, but I think looking, looking back, um, I think she, she probably knew what was, what was coming. Um, we, we phoned the hospital and said, look, you know, she's struggling, can we bring her in? They said, I can't remember the name of it now, but the Norfolk Norwich Hospital have got a dedicated, um, sort of emergency oncology ward where, where people that are struggling can, can go and get sort of a bit of, without having to go through A& E, which is really good. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:18

is good.

Mark Heazle: 33:19

and so we, we, we we're taking the kids around to mum and dad's, and instead of going straight to hospital, she said, can we just, can we just pop to the coast for a bit? So as you went with, we we're half an hour from the coast, so we went and just, just, she just wanted to sit and listen to the, to the sea. So we, we sat in the car park overlooking the, with the beach up in North Norfolk and just listened to the waves for a bit and, and then moved on to, to hospital. But that happened two or three times, kind of between, um, sort of Christmas and March where she'd get an infection. She'd go in. But, you know, anything between, I guess, three days and a week, 10 days, and she'd come home again. Um, I think, I mean, the last time she went in, we just kind of assumed that would, that would be it. Again, that she would sort of, you know, she would get better and then come home. Um, so yeah, it's kind of March now. Um, yeah, she picked up this infection, ambulance came, took her in. Um, And that was sort of, that was on Saturday, um, Saturday morning, um, I'd gone with her, um, kids had gone to, to mum and dad's, um, I hadn't thought anything of it, I just kind of, you know, actually went into recess because she was blue lighted in on the ambulance, so sat with her that day, um, and it got to about kind of six o'clock and I'm going to move her to a ward that got her comfortable, um, And I went home. Um, the kids were gonna stay at my mom and dad's that night, and so I came home to a, to an empty house. And then Sunday morning, um, I woke up and it was Mother's Day and I got in the shower and I come outta the shower and had a couple, have a couple of missed calls on my phone, but without, with, with a withheld number. And I didn't think anything more of it. Um, I popped around to my mom and dad's just to see the kids, just to make sure they're all right. And my sister was there, obviously with, to see my mum as well, but it being Mother's Day and her phone went. Um, and it was a friend of hers that works at the, works in the hospital. Um, and she, you know, the, the, the chat mic on the phone, you know, just said to my sister, you know, we're trying to get a hold of your brother. Do you know where he is? And she's like, well, he's, he's right here with me. I'm at dad's. And she, he was like, he needs to come in. We need to speak to him fairly urgently. So when you get a call like that, it's sort of like that kind of, yeah, panics you a bit. So my sister drove me in, uh, to the hospital. Um, and we got in, um, we saw Sharon, um, very briefly, and she was in bed, um, sleeping. Um, but we got taken into a side room by a, by a doctor, um, one of the sort of junior doctors that was working on her, on her case, and he said, well, unfortunately, we, you know, we've tried through the night, her, um, she's not taking any, um, or not passing any fluids, and her, her kidneys, um, her kidneys are failing now, um, so there's nothing we can do now to, um, to, to, to, to, you know. to help apart from from keep her comfortable. So, um, at that point, he said, you probably looking at kind of, um, the two weeks maximum from that point. Um, so my sister was in the room when we were told that. So, um, you know, she's part of my kind of support network and it was fantastic that I had her with her with me at that point. But, um, I think the hardest part then that day was a couple of really difficult parts was, was. Actually, um, because it was a Sunday insurance consultant wasn't their work. Um, I actually had to give him a telethon on that. Which without any kind of support from a, for a medical professional, which,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:46

I'm guessing that this is, I guess there is a glimmer of hope in your story, you know, she's outlived this five year expectation, you know, you've been told there is a small chance of people living a full life with this condition. And then I, I don't know, and I'm completely hypothesizing, but even you said, looking back at the photos, you thought how poorly she looked, but at the time you would have probably been, your brain would have been justifying it all, you know, it's this, it's this, it's this. And then the moment that you're sat in that room. With your sister and then the doctor and they're saying to you, this is, this is it, that there is nothing left we can do. It must have felt like the bottom of your world fell out because that the moment that hope goes, that is the moment that the reality of what is happening lands and that you then have to go and tell the woman that you love. That her days are, are limited, like. And then, presumably, you've got to go and tell the bloody kids as well.

Mark Heazle: 37:45

yeah, exactly. So, um, yeah, I think looking back, it's sort of, That, that day was always going to come, but I think you, you're right, it's that hope that you do try and keep in the back of your mind that perhaps that day isn't going to come.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:59

Mm hmm.

Mark Heazle: 38:00

Um, so even though it was, you know, it wasn't unexpected, it was still devastating to, to hear that and have to end it. Sharon's response was when I told her, she's like, she goes, it'll be fine. Um, I can't remember her doctor now, but she said he'll be, he'll be back in tomorrow, he'll sort it. So even then she, she kind of didn't really want to, I think, face up to that, that prospect, um, herself.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:27

did you manage to get the, the kids in to see her? The older ones, the girls come?

Mark Heazle: 38:31

Yeah. So, um, I mean, that was. A really tough one. So, um, Kira, my middle stepdaughter, she'd been, she was at university at the time over in Birmingham. Um, so she'd come back to see Sharon as it was Mother's Day. Um, so all, it was nice that kind of all three girls were around, but, um, I phoned them and had sort of, you know, just basically said, look, you need to, at that time they were all kind of with boyfriends and they weren't necessarily all at home at the same time. Um, I said, I'm at the hospital with your mum, you need to come in, I need to speak to you. Um, which I did. Um, I did the same with my mum and dad. Um, they brought Albion Orla in. Um, so I told all five of them at the same time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:14

How did they react?

Mark Heazle: 39:16

So bizarrely, obviously, the girls were incredibly upset, as you would expect. Um, Albion Orla, um, um. cried and I took them in to see Sharon after that and they both ran over and kind of jumped up on the bed. Um, that's been the only time, even when I told them that when we got a fast forward in a couple of days, so the Wednesday when she died, um, I told them, um, told her that they didn't cry at that time. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:47

Stone Cold Saga, Beth.

Mark Heazle: 39:50

yeah, so sort

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:51

weird, isn't it?

Mark Heazle: 39:51

it is, so it was, it was tough, um, as you'd expect. Um, but yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:57

the fact that they got the opportunity to go and see her, and that they, in that wonderful, innocent, childlike way, have run and jumped on the bed, you know. Sure, she loved it. But I, I mean, it's a completely different circumstance, but I took mine and Ben's second child to see his dad when he was dying, and I would just remember the smile on his face, and There's something about seeing that life carries on, perhaps, and that those babies were, they were still there. And you must have had conversations about what you would do when and if she died. Had you done that? Had you sat down and had these really difficult conversations?

Mark Heazle: 40:38

We hadn't, and that's part of, I guess, the learning when I, you know, when I've spoken to other people, um, in my position is that, um, I think I panicked one of the times she got taken to hospital coming in that period between sort of Christmas and March, um, the paramedics and I explained the situation and the paramedics left. One of them said to me, is there a DNR in place? And I was like, fuck no, I've no idea. No, there isn't in place. We've not even had that conversation. Um, but it was the fact that I actually, we got to a point now where that question had been asked. Um, it's kind of made me think that actually we probably do need to have those conversations, but, but we never got around to them. Um, I think Sharon originally kind of when she did go into hospital said that she wanted to be at home. Um, we, we had a conversation with a consultant and actually changed our mind on that one. So she was, she was able to get a place in a hospice. Um, and I, I think that was. Probably down to me more than anything, in my thinking and saying, I think she'd rather sort of be somewhere familiar, but I kind of said to her, look, I don't feel confident that I can give you the care that you need.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:54

No, and I think

Mark Heazle: 41:55

we're able to get a place in the hospital.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:58

And it often, it can make you feel quite guilty, especially if the person wants to be at home. But I think, I mean, I have not been in this position, but I think sometimes you're just totally out of your depth. Yeah, how can we keep on top of the pain and the care? And actually, often when people go into hospice, what they experience is that kind of sense of calm and being looked after and being safe. And you can kind of revert back to being husband again, which, you is a bit of a gift as well because you're, you become this, like we said, you become this specialist and carer and advocate and actually when you're able to hand over the physical care to the hospice you can be their support and the emotional care again. Were

Mark Heazle: 42:42

Yeah. Um, so yeah, we, we were lucky enough to get a place, um, Priscilla Bacon in, in Norridge, which um, is a brilliant institution. Um, and so we, yeah, we were, we were all able to kind of stay overnight. So I think she got moved over on the, on the Monday. Um, and yeah, we had a said steady stream of family and friends that, that, that, that they came to see her. Um. Even, I mean, even though the doctor originally said that, you know, looking at the two weeks max, um, it was the Wednesday night that she went in, in the end. So, and even that night, you know, when the, one of the consultants was looking after her when she left for work at the end of the day. Um, she said to me, I don't think it's going to be tonight. It might be kind of the next couple of days, but in the end it was, it was three hours later at night. So,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:30

there?

Mark Heazle: 43:31

yeah, yeah. So I was with her and the girls were with her as well. So the four of us. Um, with a, um, I decided I didn't want the children to be,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:39

No,

Mark Heazle: 43:39

they weren't old enough at that point, having

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:41

no, and it would have been very confusing for them And it perhaps would have meant that you would have had to shut down your own emotions to protect them So she died surrounded by people that she loved.

Mark Heazle: 43:52

She did? Yep.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:53

and it's an enormous injustice that she died so young I'm glad that she had you guys with her

Mark Heazle: 44:01

Thank you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:02

now Well, you mentioned a little bit about the younger children and there's this weird phenomenon of children being told catastrophic news you know, that's absolutely ripping your heart out of your chest and then Seeming um to be unbothered. That's something else, isn't it? Because you'll you until it happens to you And until you speak about it to other people who it's happened to you, you think there's something wrong with your kids. What have I raised? But it's, we know now that it's an emotional protection. They just aren't, they haven't got the emotional intelligence and maturity to process something of this magnitude. But one of the things I really liked in your application, I'm just going to refer back to it here, bear with me, was, um, But you, you said, I'm going to quote Verbatim here, I've spent the time since trying my very best to ensure our children feel confident about the future and are growing up to be well balanced individuals. I want them to have confidence in the future. This really stuck out for me, because That's exactly what you need to provide for them because their, their, their future was very uncertain. You know, we talk a lot about children's books and films, that the worst thing that can happen to a child is always the death of a parent. So how can they trust that the future is going to be safe? And how can you promise them that when we both know that you can't? So I'm just Really curious as to how you had, have supported, particularly the younger children. Um, and also just, uh, are you still close to your three daughters, the stepdaughters? I'm assuming that you are from, yeah, I thought you must be, yeah. Um, so yeah, what, what, what sort of, I hate this word, but what sort of strategies have you used to support the younger two kids?

Mark Heazle: 45:44

I can't take all of the credit for this. There's a network of people around me that, that have been absolutely brilliant, um, and have been so, so helpful in kind of, over the last, we're nearly seven years in now, that, that, that, that, that have been part of that. Um, it's not just me. So, um, I mean, my parents have, have been incredible and they've been a constant in their lives. And it's so nice to have my teenage, you know, having over 15, 16, they still go around every week and stay at the night and we get spoiled by their grandparents and they have a really close bond with them. The girls as well were absolutely amazing. They're almost kind of like Mini mums for them. So the age the girls are 25, 27 and 28. Um, yeah. They're like kind of, um, surrogate mums, if you like, that, you know, they all spend a lot of time together, which is, which is nice. They've all moved out now. They're all kind of living independently, um, but, you know, they, they still make a lot of effort to see each other. Um, the school were brilliant as well. Um, I mean, tragically, um, Sharon was one of four mums that died

Rosie Gill-Moss: 46:50

What?

Mark Heazle: 46:50

within about two years. From from our school, um, and the school that the kids, yeah, the school that the kids were at, um, was a tiny county village primary school just outside Norwich, I think at the time, 60 kids at the whole school, so you can probably about 40, 40 families, maybe, you know, with, you know, with, you know, families with with more than one kid, um, and so, yeah, Sharon was one of one of four that that four months that died within, you know, Yeah, I think a probably a two year period. So the school were really proactive around what they did to support the kids. So one of the, um, One of the local charities, Nelson journey, which is a kind of a children's bereavement charity that all of the staff went through some training that was delivered by Nelson's journey so they could understand a bit more about what the, you know, the children were going through. Um, so they were brilliant. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:45

Did they, um, I don't know whether, we talk a lot as well, in the widowhood, about finding your tribe, about finding people that get you, that get what you're going through, and the importance of finding that for children. And did they make friends or have any interaction with the other children who'd lost a mum? Because I'm wondering if that was something that helped them or, I mean, perhaps not kids do what kids do, right?

Mark Heazle: 48:09

um, to a certain extent, I mean, one of the girls that lost her mom, this was a little bit afterwards, actually, I think she was probably the last one was a good friend of all his. Um, So yeah, they would spend a lot of time together and in the aftermath of that other mum, I spent a lot of time with her husband as well, just trying to help him through things. No.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:35

grief sherpa. So you've been through it, you've navigated it, and then you sort of hold somebody's hand, and you can't help, you can't do it for them, but you can help. And when you talked about having a network, and you know, that's what enabled you to be a good parent, to keep these children safe and, and, and protected. And I think that made a lot sense to me as well, because we can't do it on our own. You can't, it's too difficult, it's too hard, and the people that are able to do it successfully do it because other people help them. I think that's such an important message to people who are perhaps not widowed or even those who have been is just, it might be, can I just take the kids for an hour? Shall I get a McDonald's on Saturday? Something like that. It doesn't have to be, I'll look after your children for a week when you go on a luxury retreat. I mean, if anybody would like to, I'm up for that. it doesn't have to be a huge gesture. So, as the children have got older, and we are on a very spookily close timeline, because Mother's Day 2018 was the last day I spent with Ben. And he died on, on the Monday, which was the 12th. So as you're saying your dates, they are spookily similar. So how have you acknowledged things like anniversaries, birthdays? What, do you do something as a family?

Mark Heazle: 49:50

Um, we, we did in the very early days, um, less, less. So now, um, so yeah, I think that the anniversary of Sharon's death is not something to really celebrate. I think we, we, we acknowledge it. Um, I'll maybe go to the burial ground, um, but yeah, well, that's not a day that we kind of, we do too much. And again, birthday, Sharon's birthday, um, first couple of years, you know, we, we, we, we made sure that we got together, um, you know, Less so now and not because we don't remember it, but it's because I think the way I like to look at it is that I think we're living the lives now that Sharon would have wanted us to do. So we're all kind of, yeah, we're all so, so busy.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:32

And also then it's not like you're forgetting them the rest of the time. This is something, cause I sometimes don't feel. I do have this weird thing in this, that body keep score where you feel a bit cranky and you're like, why do I feel so griefy and horrible? Then you look at the date and you're like, oh, it was our first date since, you know, ten years ago, whatever. Um, but I've, I've tried really hard to do nice things on the anniversary of his death. We've gone and thrown bottles of messages into the sea and we've let off balloons and done all the very non, um, ecological things you're meant to do. But, I, the last couple of years, on the 12th of March, I just haven't been able to do it. And I just thought, okay, it's just a shit day. It's a shit day. It's the day that your husband died. It, you don't have to try and make this nice for the children. And I interviewed somebody who'd lost their dad, um, quite young and she said to me enforced grief is really damaging and you think, Oh, because you're like, Oh, it's your dad's birthday. Should we go? And actually, sometimes the kids don't want that. They, they want to, they need to come to you at the times that they're feeling griefy. Not on a prescribed schedule of important dates in the calendar. And I think that we often fall into that trap of thinking that we're not remembering them and respecting them if we're not doing a Facebook post, if we're not, I don't know, sharing a hundred pictures of their life. And it doesn't mean that we've forgotten them. It doesn't mean that we don't care. It just means that we're sick of publicly sharing sometimes.

Mark Heazle: 51:55

No, absolutely agree. So, uh, but yeah, I think that that kind of feeling that you just mentioned there, I tend to have kind of not around this this time of year. So Sharon's birthday would have been in November, only a week before mine. So her birthday was the 13th. Mine's the 19th. Our wedding anniversary is in December. As well, so I tend to, in my head, kind of inwardly struggle a little bit with November and December,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:21

And those are dates that are

Mark Heazle: 52:22

it's a winter thing.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:23

like their birthday, that's their birth, that's the date of their birth. And then your wedding anniversary, that's something that's so personal and just for you too. So I, yeah, I often feel quite sad around my wedding anniversary because it was, and also it was such a happy time. You're so happy and so full of innocence and you have, you know, you stand there and say your vows and sickness and health, but you don't think you need to mean them at that point in your life. And then here we are. So. Tell me, Mark, what, what does life look like for you now? Are you still in Norfolk? Are you still

Mark Heazle: 52:54

still in Malta, we've moved a couple of times since, um, since Sharon died, so, um, yeah, where we were, the house that, that, That we were in when, when she died, um, we were renting, but, um, after she died, I was able to buy somewhere. So initially I brought somewhere big enough for the house, all six of us. Um, but now the girls have kind of moved on and, and they're independent. We downsized last year. Um, so it's just me, I'll be in all that now, um, in the house, but, um, I'm saying life is good. It's sort of, it is tough at times. Um, I've got, um, a brilliant network of friends, um, around me. Um, I've got a partner, Claire, that I've been with for a, for a number of years and she's, she's part of my network in terms of, um, help and support that I need. She was a friend of Sharon's, which, um, presented us with a few problems, um, at the very beginning. Um, but, but Claire lost her mum when she was a teenager as well. So she's been, she understands that. What the kids are going through? and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:54

a really, really important person to have around them, isn't it? Somebody that absolutely understands what they're going through.

Mark Heazle: 54:01

Yeah. Exactly. And I mean, the, what the, the nature of what she does, um, professionally, um, she is a very kind and caring person. So I'd be able to kind of draw, you know, she, she, She's in a different job now, but before that she used to work with young children that sort of needed emotional, um, support, um, for various reasons. So I've been able to kind of bounce ideas and stuff with new things like counselling for the kids. It's always something that's been on offer, but there's always something the kids have kind of said, no, they don't really need. Um, and I've kind of, I've not really pushed it, but, you know, Claire's advice to say, actually, if they're fine and they're doing well at school and that they're kind of, they seem to be thriving, don't kind of rope that boat

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:41

Yeah, and that's that kind of forced grief, isn't it? If they're doing okay. Um, and for Claire, I'm thinking the fact that she knew Sharon. That in some ways must be an enormous blessing because you've still got the shared history of Sharon. Her existence is still tangible and there, but of course it must have been a little bit strange.

Mark Heazle: 55:06

Yeah, she was, you know, she was a close friend of Sharon's. Um, and you know, with someone that we've known for a long time, the kids went to school together. Georgia actually used to babysit for her kids when they were younger. So sort of, um, they've been a part of, uh, you know, she's been a part of our life for quite a while, but it was always, it's never just kind of caught me by surprise. by surprise, to

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:25

it does that, doesn't it?

Mark Heazle: 55:27

um, that, yeah, that, um, but, but here we are. And, um, yeah, it wasn't without its complications very early on, especially, you know, with the girls, they took a bit of time to get their heads around that. But I think they're seeing now that, you know, what, what benefit Claire brings to my life. And when I was having a conversation, this and these difficult conversations, very on with the girls that, that part of my is that Claire's good for me in terms of, What she offers me, and if she's good for me, she's good for them.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:55

Yeah. And it, and it is that sort of, you were happily married. I was happily married. I couldn't fathom that I would meet somebody else, particularly not in the relatively short time that I did. I would have been aghast if somebody had said that to me. But when you love somebody you haven't, and they die, you haven't got all that animosity, the anger, the bitterness that can come from a divorce or separation, and you're sort of more open to love, I think because you know what it feels like, you know what it looks like, you, you don't want, I don't want to live without love, like that's really sad, and I still love Ben, I still love Ben to my absolute core, you know, and I always will, but he's not here, me honouring him by staying lonely for, you know, I hope to have at least 40 years. I don't think that is honoring. I think that's torturing myself and denying myself and my kids, this safe, secure family environment that they're growing up in.

Mark Heazle: 56:48

Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:49

much like you, I don't want my kids to be defined by this horrible thing that happened to them. I want them to know about Ben and understand that it was a terrible, terrible thing. But they're all, and I'm touching wood furiously here, well balanced, kind, empathetic human beings. And I'm really proud of them. And you must be of yours as well.

Mark Heazle: 57:09

Yeah, hugely. Um, I was almost was gonna say that, that one of the last conversations I had with, with Sharon when she was still able to, to, to hold them was that, that she, she told me that I need to go and, and, and live my life and show the children what it means to be happy and that that her dying isn't the end of their, their happiness and I think, or, or my happiness as well, to be honest. So, um, I think we've kind of, we, we, we've struck that balance now, I think where kind of life is good. As I said, you know, I've got a job I love. Um, the children are all doing well, and Albie um, sixth form. We're probably going to be off for university open days next year, which is terrifying.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:49

in my head, even just from hearing you talk about him, he's a little boy.

Mark Heazle: 57:52

he's always taller than me now. He's like, he's 16, but he's an inch taller than me. So

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:56

Yeah, I got a 14 year old that's six foot two. It's, um, good job he's a sweet boy because he's massive. I'd have no authority otherwise.

Mark Heazle: 58:02

Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, that's what I'm trying to do, you know, bizarrely, I mean, when I say life is good, it is good and there's always that, that kind of tinge of sadness behind it, but I started a new job three and a half years ago. I absolutely love it. Um, but obviously when you move jobs, um, the people that you start working with don't necessarily know what your, your background is. And I can remember not long after, um, after starting work. And yeah, I try and do as much as I can with the kids, just in terms of like living life, holidays, festivals, just doing stuff that just go, fuck it, we'll do it because why not? And I, I can remember explaining to, to, to someone that, um, Yeah, that I'm a widow and bringing the kids up on my own. And someone sort of said, Oh right, I never would have known. And that struck me as being kind of sort of like a, as if there was something that I needed to be doing

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:57

Yeah, where was your black veil?

Mark Heazle: 58:59

that, that sort of like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:01

Leave it at home that day.

Mark Heazle: 59:03

yeah. Um, and so I, I guess that's probably a, a sort of a, A strange compliment in a way that, that outwardly, I guess people see me living a life with the children and with Claire and with the girls and, you know, with my friends, you know, my friends throughout all of this have been absolutely brilliant. I've got a kind of a network of mates that sort of, yeah, we've been mates since high school, you know, for over 30 years now. And, um. They've all been to a man absolutely brilliant. Um, you know, when I've really needed it, they've kind of, they've stepped up. So I go away and I do fun stuff, um, because life's too short not to do those things.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:39

Yeah, it is. And even in the, um, the speech I read at Ben's, I wrote a letter to him for his memorial and, um, I think one of the lines in it is, you know, I promised to show the children what a beautiful world still awaits them. And that's what I'm trying to do. You know, we go on as many holidays as we can afford. We go and see shows in London. We do festivals. And now I know you're a festival man. Uh, Woodstock 2025 is in the possible pipeline. So I'll let you know. Um, and it just means that. And sometimes these things don't work out. Sometimes you do something. Why have I done this? But you, you try everything and that all comes down to that choice. It's that we know we're going to be sad for the rest of our lives, but we're also allowed to be happy and choosing to be happy is, is kind of the fundamental step that you have to take, isn't it?

Mark Heazle: 1:00:26

it is but then I like I'm not sure it is a choice to be honest because um, when I look at the Well, I think yeah, maybe happiness is when you've got children involved I don't think you really have a choice but

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:41

Oh, and the being brave. Yes.

Mark Heazle: 1:00:43

Yeah Life goes on for them and so you need to kind of pull your shit together I think and and just get on with it for their benefit. Um, I I don't think I had You any other choice but to, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:57

keep

Mark Heazle: 1:00:57

go back to work and to carry on providing and because otherwise life would be pretty miserable for them. And that's not what I promised Sharon I would do.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:01:05

Yeah, this is, uh, I, I, you know, I was forced to have to run the business and, and But things like having to get up and get the boys to school. Tabby was six months old, so having to get up and feed her. And I can remember saying to my mum, I'm gonna take her to some baby singing group. So my mum sort of looked at me, sure, sure you're in the right mental place for this. I said, but I can't let her be sad. I can't let her just sit and, you know, her only interaction be with me. Crying it. She needs to be out of the house. My mom and dad were brilliant. They moved in with me. They were a fantastic, but you have to go and show them that there's more outside of that sadness. And I mean, Christmas, I took the kids away on an actual airplane. And I'm thinking, Jesus Christ, how did I do that? But you just do, don't you just put your, in your case, your big boy pants on in my case, big girl pants on and you just get on with it. Well, Mark, it has been, um, you know, An absolute pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you so much for coming on and like I said at the beginning, it really is so important to get these male voices and perspectives because it is different and um, I know you had a really, really good support network but so often men don't and I'm, I'm talking about my a live husband here as well because when, you know, he's a bloke on his own with a daughter and um, Kids won't come around for playdates, it's, there's so much sort of, I don't know, like still so much stigma around, um, I guess single blokes, but also widowers, and they don't always have that support, so just by creating these episodes you are doing a massive amount for other people out there. And I, before I let you go, I just wondered if you would tell me the name of the charity that Sharon supported.

Mark Heazle: 1:02:40

So we set our own up, uh, which was since, uh, disbanded, um, But we got involved in a kind of a campaign, I can't remember the name of it now, it was all very bizarre. So we were kind of, we got linked with, um, a university in, um, in Sweden that were developing essential kind of, um, uh, on the vaccination for this type of vaccine for

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:04

Oh wow.

Mark Heazle: 1:03:06

Um, and we, we got invited to the Swedish embassy. It was all very

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:09

Oh

Mark Heazle: 1:03:09

We were invited to a function with, with the, um, uh, with the people coming over. Um, but yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:16

Well send me, send me your details afterwards if you get chance because it might just be somewhere that we can direct people to if they want any more support or information.

Mark Heazle: 1:03:23

Yeah, sure.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:24

Alright. Brilliant. Thank you ever so much for coming on today, mark. It's been absolutely delightful to speak to you and I wish you and your enormous family all the best in the future.

Mark Heazle: 1:03:34

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:36

And for everybody else out there that's listening, thank you ever so much for being part of this. If you want to message us, you know where to find me. I'm on Instagram at, um, Widowed AF. And if you've got any questions for Mark, I'm sure he'd be delighted if I put them to him. But for now, take care of yourselves out there. Lots of love and goodbye.