Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:03

Hello. Thank you ever so much for joining me. I can actually see you much more clearly now. We had just a couple of little tech issues at the beginning there, but you're looking crystal clear. Now I can see your beautiful face. So Rachel, obviously you are a member of this club. Otherwise you, you probably wouldn't be here. Um, So I've had a brief look through your application form and, um, I was saddened to read that you lost your husband to suicide. Um, uh, we had a little chat before we switched the mics on and it is sadly, um, you know, one of the common causes of death with women, particularly with women that I'm speaking to have lost their husbands. And I guess it's got so much stigma attached to it, which is an additional burden when, when you lose your, your, your husband. So. And also, I will let you tell your own story. I'm not going to tell the whole thing for you, but you were pregnant at the time, which is just horrible. I'm so sorry. So, I guess, Rachel, I'm going to hand over the floor to you, um, and tell me a little bit about, um, Ant, and how you met, and what your lives were like leading up to this, this kind of horrible moment in time. But I'm guessing there were some really happy times as well, and I want to kind of make sure we talk about those too. So, I guess, really, when you're ready, just tell me a little bit about your story, my friend.

Rachel Hart: 1:17

Oh yeah, so, I mean yeah, what were you saying about the happy times? I think that was the worst thing about it Rosie, was because we'd, we'd been married a year, we'd um, we'd just bought our new home just over a year ago as well, like it was our dream home, and yeah, we had a baby on the way, so it was just such a massive shock that, you know, I, I thought we had it all.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:38

Literally like meant to be the happiest time in your life.

Rachel Hart: 1:40

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But yeah, um, previous to getting married, we'd been together about eight or nine years. Um, we'd had such an amazing life, just, just loads of fun. We, um, we met, we didn't meet in Ibiza, but it was kind of through Ibiza. Um, he worked with my best friend there as a holiday rep. And yeah, our lives just revolve around sort of like clubbing and music and traveling and going on holiday and basically like just having ourselves to worry about. And it was coming to the time, you know, we were sort of growing up a bit. We got married, bought a home, and, you know, it was time to settle down, and we were, we were literally just about to embark on a whole new chapter of our lives together. And, you know, a really exciting one, and, and yeah, then that happens, and, yeah, it's just, just so complicated and so confusing.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:31

So you guys obviously you say you've met, um, through sort of your love of dance music and Ibiza. I'm, I'm ashamed to say I've never been to Ibiza. I'm, I'm going to go before I'm officially

Rachel Hart: 2:41

old.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:45

I don't think I'd go nightclubbing these days. But to hear, um, The kind of all the hope and anticipation and joy as you describe that that that time in your lives So I guess I guess I'm kind of really interested in here and I'm sort of going straight into the nitty gritty really I'm not giving you not really giving you I'm not buying you dinner first. I'm going straight in It's kind of you know, what were your lives like? Because obviously in order for somebody to make the decision to take their life, there's got to, normally there's quite a lot of mental health problems leading up to this. So how was Ant sort of in himself before, like as you guys essentially kind of grew up together?

Rachel Hart: 3:24

Um, well he did, he did have some mental health problems in our very early days. Um, just yeah, kind of a result of just sort of going out too much. And he had a bit of a psychotic psychosis episode, which was quite scary. Um, but yeah, this, this, this was many years before, before he died. So, um, you know, we'd worked through it together and it'd been a struggle, but I mean, there was always sort of a lingering, After effect of that where he was quite paranoid about things, about making noise or what people thought of him. Um, and it was always quite confusing to me because he was, he was so concerned about what people he knew thought about him and were saying about him. But then, You know he could go into a room full of strangers and sort of like work the room and win people over and you know everyone was always like too neat particularly sort of you know after he died and at the funeral he was the life and soul of the party and he was such a big personality he'd been a holiday ref you know he seemed like the most confident outgoing fun person there was obviously when you're the partner you know you know a bit more of the truth but that seems like a very very common theme with people who die by suicide.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:31

know, I was gonna say like all the hairs have gone off on my arm because this is so um, familiar for other women and I've actually not interviewed a man who's lost a partner to suicide but yes this idea that they are the life and soul of the party it's like the clown isn't it you know the smiling behind the mask sort of thing. Okay and so how did that impact on your lives together? You're saying that it sort of left us like like a sort of residual um, Like, I guess the words I've written here, like a people pleasing, like a desire to, um, please people, to kind of get validation, which again is really common with people who are struggling, um, with mental health conditions. So was he sort of, um, actively seeking, um, counselling or anything during this time, or were you just like, we'll deal with it when it comes up?

Rachel Hart: 5:15

Um, in the early days he did, yeah. He had quite a bit of treatment, but it was never, it was never sort of like a, you know, a problem that affected our lives in any way. Um, we did, I did find that sort of towards the point where he died, he was, he was getting a lot more paranoid and, you know, he was, I don't know. I don't know if I've ever put it down to sort of, you know, the baby coming on the way and I think it could be a trigger for men. I, um, weirdly I'm through, um, way through widowed and young. I met two other girls at the time who both lost the parents to suicide, the parents, the partners to suicide when they were pregnant, which I thought I was the only person in the world. So that was such a massive hill. Yeah. Two of us, one of them was in Liverpool as well.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:02

Stop

Rachel Hart: 6:03

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:04

Have you messed up?

Rachel Hart: 6:05

Yes, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, we're still friends, we're still in touch. Um, and another girl was in the North East as well, where I was living at the time, but yeah, I just wonder if someone has got these underlying issues, whether, you know, the, the whole sort of grand new role that you're going to be thrust up in, thrust into

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:22

I'm thinking if you're a people pleaser and you're really worried about how you're perceived and probably some sort of insecurities, you would, you would then probably be quite frightened about, you know, am I going to be good enough? Um, and I, you know, parenthood puts pressure on everybody, right?

Rachel Hart: 6:38

absolutely.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:40

So I think what I'm going to do is I'm just going to ask you, um, if you're I guess let's just go straight to it. Let's go to the crux. Let's jump straight in and tell me what happened and then we can sort of work around that if that, if you're happy to do that. So just, yeah, just tell, tell me, tell me what happened.

Rachel Hart: 6:57

Yeah, I'm funny enough I listened to your story, um, last week and the parallels in our day are crazy, really. Um, so yeah, he's, um, so yeah, I'll start. Well, we'd both been sort of working a lot away because we'd lived in Liverpool and then we'd moved up to the northeast. And after my mum had died, actually, we, we moved up to the northeast to sort of be near his family and settle down up there. Um, but yeah, we were both working away a lot and we'd had this really big period of. of not being together for long periods of time, um, and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 7:30

Like ships in the night.

Rachel Hart: 7:32

yeah, yeah, exactly. And this particular week, he, we'd, I'd gone away on the Tuesday and I wasn't going to see him until the Saturday. Um, and at the end of the week, he had a work night out on the Friday night. Um, and he was, he was sort of umlingaring about whether to go actually. It was a bit like, you know, I want to knock this in their head, they're going out and drinking and things because I feel too bad afterwards. And I was like, well, just, you know, just go. It's a work night. Don't go crazy. And, and, you know, just that, that can be the last one, like one, one last night out. Um, And then, yeah, he was staying in Manchester. So, I, I got up the next morning, on the Saturday morning, and I saw him, and I looked at WhatsApp, and he was like, flickered online at 7, 7. 30am, and then went offline. But then it was just, yeah, that whole day, it was like, where is he, do you know what I mean? Like, just waiting, waiting for a reply to my message. Horribly, the last message I ever sent him that morning was a zombie emoji with two question marks. So, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:32

I often send my friends

Rachel Hart: 8:34

yeah, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:36

I say, are you alive? And I'm

Rachel Hart: 8:38

basically, yeah, basically, are you dead? And then I remember afterwards thinking, what if the police see that message? And they think I knew it was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:45

Oh my God, this is what the brain does, right?

Rachel Hart: 8:48

you know, um, but yeah, so it was just, you know, it was like 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock and I was like getting all the house ready and getting a meal cooked and everything ready for him to come home. And yeah, it was, yeah, the whole day was just absolute torture and got some friends over because everyone was dead. Um, well no, spoke to friends at this point and, you know, said I was worried and people were going to the hotel to see if anything had happened. And then yeah, I think it was about 4 or 5pm, a knock at the door, and yeah, frosted glass, high vis jackets, just,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:23

Oh, God,

Rachel Hart: 9:24

forget that sight, yeah, um, even now when I see high vis jackets and just, yeah, it's just something inside me, yeah. Yeah, um, and yeah, but I, I opened the door. I was expecting him to be next to them, you know, looking shifty, and he'd got into a little accident or something, but no, he wasn't there, and then, yeah, the police came in and, like, you know, confirmed who I was and told me to sit down, and then, yeah, that was it. That was the biggest shock. Like, that shock lasted so long. Um, yeah, I think I swore at the police. I think they told me to sit down. I was like, fuck, I'm gonna sit down. What's happened?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:03

think you're allowed in

Rachel Hart: 10:04

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:06

worse. So something that I'm hearing from you, which is a little bit different to, um, a lot of people I've spoken to is the element of shock. Um, because quite often. People will get themselves into such a terrible mental state that I guess it's like a terminal illness. Like they're coming to the end of being able to fight it, but it starts to become obvious. They'll retreat, they'll become agitated and, you know, possibly even make attempts on their life before they actually succeed. So for this to be such a shock for you. I'm, I'm really sorry, actually, like, it's never a good thing, obviously, but to have it as just such a cataclysmic shock. Um, are you comfortable telling me what, what happened? What, how he did it? I mean, you don't have to if you don't want

Rachel Hart: 10:50

fine. Yeah, he hung himself. Which is probably like one of the most It's just so violent, isn't it? And

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:58

yeah, it tends

Rachel Hart: 10:59

it was in a hotel, so So, like, the maid found him and I just think of that poor woman finding him.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:05

I know,

Rachel Hart: 11:06

Um, yeah, it is. It's just It's just horrible. I mean, there's no nice way of doing that, but Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:12

it's so final, isn't it? Because

Rachel Hart: 11:14

so final, and um, but then I just think, I wouldn't know where to start, you'd have to Google it and find out how to do it, or, I don't know, because it could go wrong,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:24

And

Rachel Hart: 11:25

know. Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:27

again, I, I, I'm gonna, I do ask quite difficult questions. You never have to answer them. Um, did he, was he, like, was it his intention to die? It was, yeah, he was very, it was very clear that that was his intention. Yeah.

Rachel Hart: 11:39

as well.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:40

I was, that was my next question. He left you a note.

Rachel Hart: 11:42

which apparently, um, the coroner said, which is quite surprising, it's really, really rare to be left a note.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:48

Oh, is it? Because it's such an impulsive decision.

Rachel Hart: 11:51

yeah, yeah, I think that's why.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:54

What did he say?

Rachel Hart: 11:55

Um, he just said it was nothing to do with me, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:59

waste.

Rachel Hart: 12:00

that we were soulmates and he was really sorry that we, we called the baby the Gummy Bear at that point because it was one of, you know, when you've got the apps that tells you the size of the baby. Um, really sorry that he's never gonna meet Gummy Bear and that he'll love me forever. Just, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:24

there'll be marital difficulties, people might have moved out of the family home, but for him to still be saying that he loves you and that he wishes he was going to be around, I can't imagine the kind of mental torment he must have been in to think that this was a best, the best possible outcome for all three of you. And I know people can be quite judgmental about, um, people who, who, who take their own lives, because if you are in a, a normal or a calm sense of mental health. It's not something that crosses your mind. And so you can't fathom why somebody would make that choice when they've got so much to live for. But of course, nobody ever does this if they're in their

Rachel Hart: 13:01

No, no, I know, and that's, that's the horrible thing about it, just imagining how he must have been in his own head in that hotel room on his own. No, no, no, um, no, and um, you know, his toxicology report was, he hadn't even had that much alcohol. Yeah, no. No, no.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:23

Because I know cocaine is often a big factor in this kind of impulsivity.

Rachel Hart: 13:27

Yeah, no, nothing, nothing at all, which I was actually quite surprised about, really.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:31

Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Hart: 13:34

Yeah. Yeah, I ended the evening before as well, so, um, I'd gone to Ikea on the Friday evening, and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:40

rock and roll, not Friday.

Rachel Hart: 13:41

I know. Pregnant life. Um, but, but yeah. And I called him and said I'm at IKEA. And he was like, what are you doing there man? He was Geordie by the way. That wasn't, that wasn't Geordie SM. But he was like, you know what you're doing there? Just wait for me to come home. I don't want you carrying boxes on your own. And I was like, but the next day you're happy to let me carry on with the rest of my life on my own?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:02

no sense, does it? It absolutely makes no sense. And that, I guess that is one of the really difficult things when somebody dies suddenly and you haven't got the answers. Because I lost Ben suddenly, um, different circumstances, but I have a lot of questions for him. You know, why did you go in the water when you've been sick on the boat? Why did you go in alone? And it doesn't make sense how they can go from being this kind of vibrant, strong person. Man to just not existing anymore. And I know that one of the things I was able to tell my children is, you know, dad didn't choose to leave. You know, lots of children in your class won't have dads because they've chosen to leave the family home. Um, and that's something I was able to get quite some degree of comfort from. But of course for you and your, it's a little boy you've got,

Rachel Hart: 14:47

Yeah, Johnny. Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:49

that's, that's really, sorry, it must be four, right? Four or five?

Rachel Hart: 14:54

cool, yeah, yeah, cool.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:56

So, having to, I'm going to go back again a little bit into sort of at the time, but, um, that, again, having to answer questions from your child as he begins to be aware of the fact that his dad's not here, because Tabby, my youngest, she was six months, so although, like, you know, she was, out of me. She was, you know, still in what I lovingly of watering and keeping alive. And it's really when she started school that it sort of, she's, even, even though obviously her siblings plus a parent, it was that sort of, I feel a little bit different now. I can see, I, So having to explain that in a way that is, um, accessible for a small child, how did you manage to do that?

Rachel Hart: 15:34

so at the moment, I mean, I've told him that he used to have another daddy before. Um, because Warren, my partner now, has always just been his dad. We met when Johnny was eight months, so. So, um, I've just sort of explained it to him that he used to have another daddy and he wasn't very well. Um, bless him, his little reaction when I told him that, he went, Oh, so is he in heaven with your mummy now? And I was like, oh yeah, yeah he is. Um, so that's, that's enough for now. Good. Yeah, a four year old doesn't even understand the concept of death, let alone suicide. But,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:06

No, and it's a really massive, massive subject. But when I filled in Tabby's book, when she's, you know, they send home a little, I don't know if you started school yet, but when they start in reception, they send home like a little book that you can put pictures and stuff so they can get to know the child. And I was like, I've got two daddies and I thought, oh, they're going to open this page and be like, oh, how modern. But, um. explaining that, you know, one daddy, um, I can't remember if I said heaven or not, but when the other daddy is here and it's, I guess that we are in a world now where the nuclear family really doesn't exist very much, so at least they're not going to feel quite so different. Now, you mentioned, um, you mentioned your partner there, so I'm, I'm really pleased to hear that you, you've met somebody and you're planning your wedding, aren't you? When is that?

Rachel Hart: 16:47

Yeah, um, September. End of September. I think I'd be through as

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:53

of course it is.

Rachel Hart: 16:54

Yeah. But yeah, I was sprinkled, I sprinkled some of Anne's ashes there. Um, I'm eternally grateful to Warren for that as well because it was his first time to Ibiza. And I was like, do you mind if I take some ashes? And he was just like, no. And he just let me and my friends have this little moment. And it was sunset and, you know, it's just one of those beautiful, beautiful moments.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:14

Oh, yeah.

Rachel Hart: 17:15

Um, but yeah, I got

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:16

how does it suppose to be? Is it

Rachel Hart: 17:18

Um, online actually. It was, um, it was the height of lockdown, so there wasn't, yeah, there wasn't much choice really. There wasn't much of a choice, so yeah, um, lockdown. But it's funny, um, so, yeah, um, I lost, lost my dad when I was 20, and then I lost my mum when I was 34. Um, so at this point if I, if I was a pregnant widowed orphan.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:40

Oh, God!

Rachel Hart: 17:42

how tragic can you be? How am I going to get out of this?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:47

not having your parents there to lean on. I always feel, okay, I always feel really extra sad for people, because my parents, and I know not everyone has a brilliant relationship with their parents, but it was that calling my parents, them coming to my rescue, they lived with me, sort of held me up when I couldn't do it myself. And who, who was that for you? Who supported you through this?

Rachel Hart: 18:08

had so many people, it was so lovely, Rosie. I had my auntie, who I'm super close to, my mum's sister. But I was actually in the process of moving house when lockdown started and me and Johnny lived with her for six months, from when Johnny was about four months old. Yeah, I'm eternally grateful for that because I was in a little safe bubble when I could have been completely stuck on my own with a newborn, so

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:31

Yeah, I mean, that is really, like, shivers, the thought of having to navigate that and grief and lockdown

Rachel Hart: 18:38

But then friends as well, I had loads of friends up and because, because we were living in Newcastle and all my friends were in, most of my friends were in Liverpool, um, people would come up and just spend weekends back, batch cooking with me because I had food to eat and then, you know, our mutual friends up in Newcastle, aunt's family, like, I was very, very lucky to have people around. But then I also felt like I wasn't anyone's top priority, as in I wasn't anyone's child or partner. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:06

yeah, that's a really good point, actually, because when you are widowed, you go from being having somebody that is, you know, in most cases in your corner, your, you know, has your back, coined that horrible phrase, but it's Who puts me first now, and I think you're right, that is a really scary place to be and then to have lockdown on top of it, which can, we talk about being widowed as making you feel very isolated and, you know, like you're a stranger in a different country and of course, you literally were isolated,

Rachel Hart: 19:33

Yeah, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:35

uh, thank you to your aunt for taking care of you, by the way, from one widow to another.

Rachel Hart: 19:39

me though, because, um, yeah, because, because of the position I was in and I was just so vulnerable and, you know, postpartum and just in a horrible mess really, like, you're bad enough when you've just had a baby anyway, aren't you, let alone being freshly widowed. But yeah, there was no pressure to be going to baby groups or going out for brunch or seeing people. I just, I walked every day and lost all my baby weight and came out. Yeah, that's how I felt and I met Warren, so it was actually a blessing for me, lockdown, really. It was exactly what I needed.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:13

Yeah. You've got to sort of hunker down in that little bubble and, and bond with your baby.

Rachel Hart: 20:16

exactly. Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:19

Okay. So I touched on at the beginning about the kind of stigma attached to a death from suicide. And I just wondered whether you had, um, how that had impacted on you, you know, people's reactions because like I'm saying, people must've had questions, you know, was there signs? And that must've, again, you must've felt a little bit like you were under the spotlight because people would have been coming to you to ask things.

Rachel Hart: 20:43

Yeah, absolutely. And like, you're questioning it for yourself as well, is it, you know, every little conversation that you've had, you're going through it and thinking, yeah, is it something I've done or, but then yeah, and as well, if you, if you don't know why, it's kind of like, you wonder if people are, you feel a bit judged because it's actually quite a, quite a bad question really, but it's everyone's first one, but it can make you just feel like, Yeah. Yeah, like you've missed something or, like you said, you're under the spotlight.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:13

And what about his friends? How did they react to this? Because they must have been just as shocked as you were.

Rachel Hart: 21:18

Exactly, yeah. Um.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:19

Yeah,

Rachel Hart: 21:19

Yeah, just questioning themselves and yeah, wondering if there was something they could have done. And it's, it's just so complex, isn't it? It's, it's, you've got all the usual feelings when you lose someone, but, but all those, you know, all that confusion and guilt and, and anger as well. Anger was a massive one. As you can, as you can imagine, I was furious. Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:43

with Ben, particularly if the, the boys were sort of being, you know, just being kids, but, you know, being assholes because kept their kids. And then the baby would be crying. I wouldn't have slept. And I'd just be like, it's all right for you. You got to fucking die. I'm here picking up everything. And of course you don't mean it because we're still here. We still get to watch our babies grow. We still get to die. you know, live our lives. But in that moment, you do feel like you've just been kind of, you know, left there holding the baby, literally, in our

Rachel Hart: 22:10

literally, yeah. And, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:13

Actually, I've got another question for you. Um, what about the birth? Who was with you at the birth? Because that must have been really, really

Rachel Hart: 22:19

yeah, aunt's momma.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:20

birth, birth, birth. Ants mum,

Rachel Hart: 22:22

Yeah. Yeah, aunt's mom, yeah. I elected for a C section as well. I was like, I don't even want the uncertainty of, you know, anything bad happening, not knowing when it's coming. I was just so scared. But yeah, I'd recommend an elected C section to anybody. It was really easy. Yeah. Yeah, amazing. Amazing's probably not the right word, but from some of the best horror stories I've heard.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:48

Well actually that's, I had two, I had to elect him first time because he was breached and then I did try and labour with my second because I thought I don't want to be, you know, recovering with a toddler. labored and then had a c section anyway, so when it came to the third one, I was like, just book me in. There is not going to be any discussion about a natural birth after that. Um, and I'm, again, I'm, I feel like I'm really kind of poking you to try and, and, and sort of dig into your grief a little bit, but the moment that you held little Johnny in your arms, like, does he look like his dad? I mean, that must have brought, it's an emotional thing anyway, having a baby. And I, I'm just thinking to. The hymns were reflected back at you.

Rachel Hart: 23:25

Yeah. It was weird as well. And just going back a little bit. But, um, when, when, when we lost and a lot of people were like, Oh, at least you've got that baby. And I was like, are you kidding? That's literally the worst thing about it. Because I've always. Yeah, I've always got a part of them, but I can't ever fully move on from it because, and I, yeah, I, I did, did resent it a little bit and, and also I was like, you know what? Just wanna get really drunk or just go off traveling or just escape. But I was sort of stuck. Um, but looking back now, definitely it was a blessing because I didn't turn to alcohol. I had to look after myself. I had to get myself through. Um, and yeah, and this is sort of a, a way of, you know, help. Telling Johnny more as he gets older, like, he's a little lifesaver, like, anything could have happened to me, I didn't care about myself that much, so. To be able to tell, your mum to tell you that one day, I would just want her to be really proud of me. Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:24

the old goosebumps have gone, they've gone up. This, this is, it's, I always described my, my life before, much like you described yours with Ant. It was really, really great. Ben and I met, I'd just finished university and we had that kind of those best years, you know, when you've got disposable income, even in London, just had an absolutely brilliant time. Um, But when he died, and my children, they gave me a reason to get up. They did. They stopped me retreating under the duvet with a bottle of gin. Um, it did sometimes feel, and in my head I've got this kind of picture of like a woman, like pulling her kids up a mountain, and then you keep sliding back and you, and it's, you have to kind of get to the top. But much like you, I credit them with, giving me that reason to get up in the morning. And with my little one, she was always, I was called her the cherry on the cake because life was really good and we didn't need another child. We had two healthy children, but it was that, okay, I'm coming up to 40. Let's just, let's just have one more. And that she, she just, she's a, she was a very happy, smiley baby. And we used to, my mum used to bath in a bucket and stuff like, as you do. And it just, And I felt very much that I didn't want her to grow up sad because obviously we know that we didn't feed off your emotions. So I was not in lockdown, so I did have to do the baby groups, but I'd be like, uh, yeah, uh, babies and then Grace is like, it got me out of the house, pushed me to meet other people and having to re, almost rebrand yourself because you're not the same person that you were. So people that you meet from that point onwards are going to meet you. as a widow, as somebody who's on their own, you know, with their children. And that's a really, like, when do you bring it up in conversation at these baby groups? Like, when you drop the, the dead husband bomb, it's,

Rachel Hart: 26:11

we have it all the time at nursery even now. Um, 'cause yeah, going back to your earlier question, like Johnny didn't look like aunt when he was first born. He, he actually looked like my dad. Um, he was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:21

Ahh

Rachel Hart: 26:22

um, but he's aunt was really dark, like really dark hair. But now he's got really dark hair. And he looks a lot more like Ant, but, um, Warren and I, both blonde. So sometimes you'll be at a kid's party and somebody'll be like, Ah, he doesn't look like you. Where'd you get his dark hair from? And you know, you're like, I've just met you. I don't really want to tell you this at the moment, but

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:42

And then I feel I can't tell half the story because John and I have got, so his daughter is in the same year group as my middle son. So they're not currently in the same school. But for a time they were, and so people would be like, Oh, are they twins? And then you're like, uh, no. And then I don't want people to think necessarily that Ben had walked out on his kids. So I'm like, within about 10 seconds of meeting somebody, I can like blow their mind and leave them like, ah, but of course we're,

Rachel Hart: 27:08

don't do it for them, do you Rosie? Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:11

but you, and I also used to find I would, I'm protecting other people's feelings and I'm like, why am I doing this? It happened to me. Like, you're gonna, you're gonna hear it all. Use it tonight. I'll tell you there every

Rachel Hart: 27:22

we've, Johnny's just got his new school for September. And then, it's a, it's a C of E one nearby. And we would have had no chance of getting into this school. You must know yourself, the distances are so tight and they're so tough to get into. Um, I was really panicking about it one day. And for some reason, we haven't, we don't go to church or anything, not religious in the slightest. But I looked at the admissions policy for this school. And number two, like before siblings, before going to church or anything, it was like, if, if the parent has lost, if the child has lost a parent by death, you know, and you're like, can we use this? Is this really bad taste to use this? And so we used it and he's in, but now it's like, what school is he going to? And we're like, they're going to ask us if we go to church. They're going to say we don't live nearby. We're going to have to tell them that we went down the dead dad route. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:14

it turned out, it was prior to Hector getting an autism diagnosis, and, um, I just knew that the school weren't able to support him, so I won't bore you with that. Yes, but I moved schools and uh, they've also moved again. My kids are like just moving around all the time. But um, the, the head teacher there was, she sort of said, well, we technically don't have enough space, but because of their, their dad dying, and like, we can use that with, we're in that, I think that was a Church of England, Church people in school. And um, you do, you feel really guilty because you're like, Oh God, am I leapfrogging the queue? But also it's a fucking awful thing to happen. Let them have some pluses from it,

Rachel Hart: 28:47

Yeah, exactly. And if the schools are aware of it, they're going to get a bit

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:54

Yeah. And I, what I find is as they get older, they are less keen to sort of share what's happened. So my eldest is in secondary and I said to him, I was like, do your friends know? And he's like, no, no, I haven't told them. And I thought, okay. So it's, But it's giving them the choice of whether or not they want to share it as well, which is quite important. Definitely at primary school because, I mean, it's, it's, your son sounds to me like Tabby because she, John and I got together when she was about 18 months old. So, but she's not really known any different. So she won't, she doesn't remember before he was in her life. And so for her, it's like Father's Day, you know, you know, it's just John goes, it makes, she doesn't really make that connection. Um, but I do think that the school, sometimes he may be completely, but sometimes I'm getting, for example, we were driving home from a music class one day in my friend's car and her daughter went, Oh, there's your dad and pointed at John. And she went, that's not my dad. My dad's dead. Oh my god, okay. I think she said it at nursery as well, so you, it's that kind of, if you forget to tell somebody, they're like, don't be ridiculous, I've met your

Rachel Hart: 30:00

Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, Johnny, Johnny hasn't mentioned it too much. Like we made a conscious decision to tell him early because he thought it was really important. Like imagine dropping that on a 13 year old, like full identity crisis meltdowns. But, um, it's in there. He doesn't mention it a lot, but one day I was putting a necklace on and went, Oh, your dad got me this. And he was like, daddy and Evan. I was like, no, the other one. I didn't, I didn't realize he'd taken it in so much, but they do.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:28

Yeah, it's, I, I, I remember, um, yeah, that night it happens, you know, on my phone Googling how to tell a child that their parent has died. Not something I ever thought would be in my search history, if I'm honest, but the, all the advice to be saying, you'd be as, um, as honest and open as you can in an age appropriate way, you know, use the words like they died, because particularly, And say he was lost. Um, I knew even in that kind of early, early hours, I knew that that would be very confusing because children are very literal and you know, they would think, well, if he's lost, it's like when I lost my shoes, it will turn up kind of thing. And how, how's, um, Poor old Warren's going to get dragged into it now. Sorry, Warren. How has it been? I mean, I'm asking you to speak on his behalf, but obviously he's, he's met you. You've been through a massive trauma, you know, bigger than most people ever experienced in their lives. And you've got a month old baby, which I consider a pass, but obviously when you've got dipping your toe into the dating,

Rachel Hart: 31:27

Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:28

that's, you're not thinking just for you, you're dating for your children as well, whole other dimensions. So how, how

Rachel Hart: 31:35

mad, isn't it?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:35

for you to

Rachel Hart: 31:36

Yeah, there was a few times, like, you just think people, people would just see, like, widow and, like, you know, relationship status, widows, and, like, you've got a child and, you know, People would just be like, no chance. I thought I was like, yeah. On the scrappy pretty much at 36. Yeah, exactly. Um, no, he's really embraced it and he's, he's got two daughters of his own, two older daughters. Um, and yeah, he said he'd always wanted a little boy and he was, he was quite happy with the package and he knew, knew Johnny needed a dad and he was willing to step in and, and be that role. So yeah, he's embraced it. I think some people just get though, don't they? You know, if you've been through these kinds of things, you know, you do change, don't you? And I think sometimes for the better, you've got to break your heart, but I think it makes your heart bigger at the same time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:27

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think to have, people, um, can again be quite, quite judgmental when we do find love again. Because when your person dies, much like you, I was, I think I was just, I think my 30, I've just turned 37, like two weeks before. Um, and I can remember thinking to myself, well, that's it. Like I just got to get the kids to adulthood and by then I'll be just this miserable husk of a woman that's done, you know, been on her own staring at, you know, reality telly and I really thought that was my future because that's how I felt. I felt like my, my soulmate, my best friend, my love was gone and therefore that was it for me. Now I quite often compare this to sort of having kids in terms of when you have one child you think, I remember being pregnant my second and going, I'm never going to love this child as much. But actually. I think there's something when you, when you lose somebody and you love them so much, you know how that feels and you don't want to live the rest of your life without that. So to have the courage to open your heart again is, it, it takes a lot of guts because you've been hurt in the most horrible possible way. And you are, I, I felt like I had no tolerance for bullshit, no game playing.

Rachel Hart: 33:39

about the small stuff.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:40

I just. It was, take me as you, as I am, you know, I'm a little bit mental at times, I might just burst into tears about my dead husband whilst I'm doing the washing up, you know, there's no, there's no rhyme or reason for it. And actually to find somebody that is able to give you the space to do that and support you while you do it, that is a real blessing and I'm really glad that you found that.

Rachel Hart: 34:00

too. Um, yeah, it's strange because my mum was she was, 43 when we lost my 46. And she met my stepdad, Danny, a year later. And I remember at the time, and I'm quite ashamed to say and I wish I could apologize, I was quite judgy about it because it was like, how can you replace my dad so quickly? I still haven't got my dad and now you've got a new partner and, but She, she found happiness again and I think when you're in this situation, I think, and this is the point of the podcast, I think for you, is evidence that you can be happy again. There is, there is light at the end of the tunnel and seeing that my mum was happy again, it was the first thing I thought about that. Well, my mum was happy again after losing her husband young, so I can be

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:43

And that's the other thing, when you're a kid and your mum's feel like they're

Rachel Hart: 34:47

Yeah, I always say this.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:50

You, you know, we could have another 40 odd years. I mean, I'd like to think we will.

Rachel Hart: 34:54

Yeah, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:54

to spend more of your life alone than you did with, with them. What a tragedy. What a tragedy. And for some people that is it. You know, my, and actually my grandma, she lost her husband quite young and she never met anybody else. And it was, I don't think it was exactly her final words. That's very dramatic. But in one of her final conversations with my mum, she said, I wished I'd met somebody. I wish, I wish I'd met someone else. And I feel like that is, I don't want to look back on my life with any regrets. I'd rather take the chances and fall on my face than not take the chances. But it is, it is, it is a leap of faith when you're involving children. That does add that extra fear because my worry was, you know, what if, and actually it nearly came true, because John, um, very nearly died in COVID. So it could have, you know, my kids could have ended up losing two dads. before they hit double figures, which, ah!

Rachel Hart: 35:43

Can you imagine?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:44

And it didn't happen, and, and we are, you know, it's a slightly dysfunctional, you know, very noisy, it's like a zoo, my house. I looked after a friend's children yesterday, and they, they, they're very quiet children, and they walked in, it's like this wall of noise, and there's, you know, people whacking each other with a towel, and it's carnage. But it's, it's what, it's what we've got. Yeah. I do, I do. I love, I love being part of the big family and I love the fact that we have this really open dynamic where there's no questions are off limits. We can talk about Ben and John's late wife, Sarah. It's all very much, um, I guess four of us in the marriage. In, in, in a

Rachel Hart: 36:19

We say

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:19

way.

Rachel Hart: 36:21

We say that, just the three of us bringing Johnny up. Just one of them, unfortunately, isn't here. We say that all the time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:27

Yeah, he contributed to the genetics, so he's, he's done his part. And, I'm going to ask a question which you absolutely don't have to answer because it's quite a, a difficult one, but because of the nature of how Ant died, do you worry about Johnny? Do you worry that he might have inherited that sort of predisposition to mental

Rachel Hart: 36:47

Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, when, again, when, when I start explaining the details a bit more to him as he gets older, just sort of hammering home the importance of talking to people, talking to someone. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:01

because men of advanced generation, they just, we do, and particularly northern men, especially, they really are kind of locked down those feelings. Um, and I, again, sorry to make it about me, but this is sort of, the only way I can relate is I, because I, um, am in recovery from addiction. My dad, um, was an alcoholic. He's been, uh, sober for, let's see, 30 years. Um, my brother is, he's sober. So I know that that chain of addiction runs through my family line. And so for my kids, I'm like, my oldest is 14. He's, he's not into like going out yet. He's not, he's very different to me as a teenager. Yeah, I know. I'm

Rachel Hart: 37:38

do these anyway though, do they? Yeah. No, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:41

but to be able to kind of talk about drinking and saying, you know, just be aware that there's an increased risk for you because You know, it, it runs in the family and I guess it's all to do with awareness and talking. You're right. Just getting them to even little things like identify the feelings of anxiety, like the word anxiety didn't, didn't exist when we were younger, right? Like you,

Rachel Hart: 38:03

didn't do it at all. No.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:05

and I even really struggled giving myself that label because I don't want to be one of those people that's anxious, but actually it's a really debilitating condition. And by saying that we have it, it, I kind of. I don't know, it enables that dialogue to happen.

Rachel Hart: 38:19

Yeah. And I think more is being done and there is, you know, there's charities like Calm About Now, which, you know, are encouraging men to open up and talk, but I still don't think it's enough, but I'm pretty sure that schools will be really on this kind of thing now. I don't know if you've experienced where children are encouraged to talk about the mental health and feelings a lot more.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:39

Yeah, I mean, so, lots and lots has changed, um, my eldest is in a really lovely secondary school, so they're very, they had somebody, a woman coming to talk about, um, like neurodiversity in women and things, so they're very, very kind of ahead of the curve in terms of that sort of thing. But the thing that, really upsets me is like the fact that other kids will pick on kids for not having a mum or dad dying. Like that still goes on. And I just think, Oh, that, that makes me feel really sad for humans. It's never happened to my kids. So I'm not saying like it happens everywhere. And I think it just depends on what kind of nasty little scroach you've got in their class, to be honest.

Rachel Hart: 39:13

People do stuff like that because they're scared of different things and they're probably scared of it and the thought of it happening to them, so.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:21

That is a really key point because the apparent dying is the kind of core of every Disney film, every children's book, you know, that, you know, um, uh, success after adversity. And so they are surrounded with images from such young age. or stories of how, you know, this would be the worst thing that ever happens. And then you have to stand by as it happens and try and explain to your child why that, why that horrible, terrible thing happened to them. Um, and I think in a way it is a blessing when they're younger, because although there is that horrible feeling of them never having met and having no real genuine core memories, I think for them it's better. probably is easier because they're not having to process all that grief as well.

Rachel Hart: 40:03

Yeah, exactly.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:05

Actually, you mentioned there, um, the support, what was that support group you mentioned? I'm just going to jot that down.

Rachel Hart: 40:10

Um, the charity.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:11

Yeah, so,

Rachel Hart: 40:12

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:13

oh, it was Julia, because a good friend of mine, actually, her son, um, took his own life um, you know, he was only 13 as well. It was just, it was really, I mean, it is an awful tragedy. I know. Um, and his dad set up a charity called Ollie, which is one life lost is enough, um, in his memory. So there are, there is work being done and actually, uh, one of, an acquaintance of mine, her husband runs a charity called Dad's Space. So kind of provide, mum's tend to, we meet up for coffee. Like we go to the, you know, play dates, that sort of thing, where we, you know, sometimes I'll have conversations at school gate that I wouldn't even necessarily have with my therapist, you know, and I commend that it just isn't there necessarily, that network, and especially if they're not working, like if they're not in an office, because That's the other thing, we're getting more and more isolated, you know, everyone's still working from home in a lot of cases. Sorry, I went off on a tangent there.

Rachel Hart: 41:11

No, it's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:12

Can you, I'm going to take you back again, five years ago if I may, and just, just things like, just curious about how things like going back to work were, because did you go back to work after you had Johnny, or were you able to take a sort of prolonged leave of absence?

Rachel Hart: 41:25

Um, I did go back for a little bit before I had Johnny, actually. So, I died in the August, and I think I went back to work just for a few weeks, maybe about a month in the November. And I did that purely because I didn't want my bereavement leave and maternity leave to be too long. That's the same thing. I thought I'm only going to get, I wasn't ever planning on having any more children, but I didn't want to, you know, to be tainted by that. I wanted to have my maternity leave and finish for maternity rather than just, you know, blend it all

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:54

the balloons and the,

Rachel Hart: 41:56

yeah. And I needed a bit of normality as well. There's only so long you can mope about, isn't there really? Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:05

And I think that structure is important. Um, I, I wasn't working at, well, I was actually signed off sick because I was teaching water, water babies, baby swimming. And, um, I was getting terrible migraines from being in these hydro pools. So I was actually signed off sick anyway. And then I went, um, see my GP after Ben died and they sort of signed me off again. Um, but it was, yeah, I, I, and then I, I kind of sort of ran his business enough to keep the wolf from the door, shall we say, but without any. Huge degree of success. But even, even that, you know, having, I found that enormous responsibility of like, Oh my God, I got to keep the household running. Like, what am I going to do? Because they're used to having two incomes. In fact, we're actually used to having one income because like I say, I wasn't working at the time. Um, and, but I do think having, Having that structure, it was one of the things that I was advised with the kids, get them back to school really quickly, you know, don't let them stay off because the other thing is it turns into almost a celebration and from their perspective, because people are turning up bringing gifts and being really lovely and kind, but they, it's quite confusing because it's like I'm getting good stuff, but because my dad died.

Rachel Hart: 43:10

I know, yeah, you don't want them to sort of link those two things together, do you?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:16

And have you got, like, I know you said you scattered some of his ashes in Ibiza, but have you got somewhere in the UK that you can take Johnny and sort of, as he gets older, he'll be able to sort of, I don't know, I don't know, like, I've got a memory stone at a church with, like, nothing. I've been there because he's in the channel. Um, and it's, I literally, I thought it would be somewhere we'd go quite a lot as a family, have picnics and I don't really know.

Rachel Hart: 43:36

no, um, no, like, his parents have got, got some, so, I don't know if they've got some in their garden, actually, maybe, but we, I take Johnny up quite often to visit them. Yeah, I want him to, you know, know all about the family and they can tell him stuff about Ant as he grows up. And also I just think how much love must his mum have for that little boy. Um, yeah, I want him to feel that love as well. Um, because same as you, um, listen to your story as well, like you had to break the news to his mum. It's like horrendous.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:10

Yes, yes. I mean, talk about being the bearer of the worst possible news. Um, yeah, but it's, Ben's mum and I, um, I mean, they live on the Isle of Wight, so I don't get to see them as often as I would, I love the Isle of Wight, actually, but, um, unfortunately, trying to get an Airbnb in the school holidays is, uh, But we do try and get down there at least once or twice a year, and, uh, you, nothing can repair what they've lost, but I think today, I mean, my eldest particularly is like a carbon copy of his dad. He's the same height as his dad was. And also it's, I think for her to see that, and I think to see that I'm doing an all right job of it, like to see that they're thriving and they're loved and they're safe, because I don't think I knew what kind of mum I would be after this happened. I, you know, I wasn't the best mum for the first year, certainly. Don't appear to have been massively impacted, which sounds like a horrible thing to say because it was such an awful thing. But if you were to come to my house, you would not think, oh, these are full, bereaved children. Like they, they don't have attachment issues or behavior issues that they are. They're not having nightmares and all the things that I was terrified that they would have that they would never feel and to use, you know, normal. And actually, They do, and they are, and it's not this, it is a thing that, it's a terrible thing, it's the worst thing that can happen to them and it happened, there's nothing that we can do about that, but what we can do is help how it, how it defines them, or how it doesn't define them actually, because there's more to them.

Rachel Hart: 45:39

Yeah, yeah. It's the same for us as well. Define was a word, like, I was really scared of being defined by it. I thought I was just going to be, like, in black with, like, a widow stamp on my head for the rest of my life. Then, yeah, I remember speaking to a close friend of mine at the time, and I was, I said that to him. I was like, I don't want it to define me, and he was just like, don't let it. Okay, yeah, actually, that's really good advice. So you don't, yeah, or you can do.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 46:05

I still remember the first time I wore makeup on the school round because, um, I felt like I was being really disloyal because, you know, first of all, it's like just the dark shadows and, you know, just head down. And then gradually I sort of started to put a bit of lipstick on and I, yeah, it's really, You don't want to be, nobody ends up, you know, dressed in black with a veil, that's a myth, that's a, a storybook, that's, that's, that's not true, we, we don't cease to be alive anymore, because they've died, and yes, it's a horrible time, and it's really tough, keeping hold of your own identity is, is really vital, because otherwise you do let yourself be defined by it, and that's when you get stuck, and you've got, um, you literally, I, I never wanted to just be waiting to die, I guess is what I'm trying to say, and I think that, that's your alternative really, isn't it?

Rachel Hart: 46:53

Yeah, yeah, and sort of having the double, double new identity of a widow and a mum at the same time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 46:59

Yeah. And for you, you're going to be a wife again. That's, that's because then you, I mean, I, I, I actually stole this from Nora McKinney, which is, um, an American podcast host. And

Rachel Hart: 47:09

your widow's club. My guidebook at the time. It's made me laugh so much. Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:16

of, um, it's And it's, I'm still friends with a lot of people from there. And I went, we went to America in the summer and I managed to meet up with a couple of those. So they, I've got such a soft spot from them, but she, it's where I heard that kind of alive and dead husband thing and I was like, oh my God, you can't do that. then I just started into conversation and, you know, there is my late husband, he's dead. Like he's not late, he's dead. So, or if I'm being, you know, a little bit more, um, tactful, I might say my first husband, but of course. You know, that, that leads to other questions, but how are you feeling about embarking onto into another marriage and married life together?

Rachel Hart: 47:55

exciting. It's always hard, isn't it, as well, using the word lucky in this situation, but I do, that is how I feel. Very lucky to, to have, you know, another chance. And with someone who I've had to make no compromises with, like, you must have felt the same as well. It's like, Because of your widow status and all your children, you thought I'm going to have to compromise on something and I'm not going to get my perfect person here, but I have, um, yeah, I feel so,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:22

And I think your idea of what's perfect can change as well, because you've changed. Like when I met Ben, I was, like I said, I was just out of university. So we were, he was older than me, but you know, I, I knew nothing about the world. Whereas I've come into this relationship as an adult, you know, we're both grown up. We've got, um, There's a lot of, we've both got baggage, of course we have, but we've also got an insight into the world that most people, fortunately, don't have to have. And I think you mentioned earlier that it can, it makes you different. And I think, you know, yes, in some ways it makes you better. Because I have, I've got a lot more compassion. I'm a lot more empathetic. And those things that I've been able to bring to this relationship, and it's not always been easy. We've both had breakdowns. We've both had some really tough times, but that kind of core connection is what's kept us going. And, and you say about feeling lucky. Um, my, actually it was my, my sister in law's called me lucky once. And it was something about, I think it was going on holiday. I was like, not lucky. Like, but now I, now I do feel lucky

Rachel Hart: 49:21

okay to say it yourself, I think.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:24

Yeah. And I, I, I look around at my social group and how many of my, fortunate maybe, how many of my social group are really shitty partners or husbands or they're going through really difficult, and I think actually, no, I had a really uncomplicated, lovely, happy relationship with Ben. I was loved so completely by him. And then to be able to find a level, it's a different love, it's a different relationship, but to be able to find somebody that feels that way about me again, it's, yeah, I am lucky actually, because a lot of people don't get it for that once.

Rachel Hart: 49:54

Do you sometimes feel a bit sad, I do, that you didn't get to enjoy the times that you and Ben spent sort of like the carefree problem without children?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:02

Yes.

Rachel Hart: 50:02

Yeah, same.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:03

Yeah, there is. John and I went to Reading Festival, um, it could be three years ago now. And, oh my God, the average age at Reading Festival is about 17. It seems to be where they go after they've done their, um, their exams. So we were, at one point, um, Stormzy was on, and we were like, you know, trying to fit in. And this couple, they went, I think we had a little kiss, and this young kid went, I hope we're like you when we're old. And Oh, God, but we wanted to do that. We wanted to do the festival thing because we've never, we'll be taking the kids to the festival, but we've not got to do it ourselves. So we try now, now they're a little bit older and less than, you know, cause for a while, um, one of my children, I couldn't really leave him at all. He had some quite severe attachment issues, but you know, we're going up to Manchester, actually, we're going up to Manchester on Saturday to see a band. Yes, we started trying to, the differences you get to a little bit more disposable income as well, so you can stay in a nice

Rachel Hart: 50:55

and you appreciate it when you do get to do it. you appreciate it when you're young anyway, do you? But now, yeah, if you have a night out, for some reason, like a night or two away, like, they say, I mean, he's there and I'm so happy.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:07

I do need to come to bed on a high thread count these days.

Rachel Hart: 51:09

I know, yeah. But we can afford them now, we're old.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:12

Yeah. In fact, my eldest is going, he's doing the Duke of Edinburgh and I've just had to buy camping stuff and um, he's like, do you know how to put up a tent? And I'm like, no. I think you've known me for 14 years. Of course, I don't know how to put up a tent. Don't be ridiculous. Um, but yes, it is, it is, you don't have that shared history. You don't, haven't grown up together. You haven't gone through a pregnancy together. You haven't, you know, bought your first house together. All the firsts have sort of been taken away from you. But I like to think that we'll stick around long enough that the kid will get the kids through to adulthood. We'll sell this house and then perhaps we'll go around the world. I've got, and then I think, Oh, I shouldn't delay it. We should just. Do we should pull the kids out of school and do it? And then I realized I got four kids and I really don't want to.

Rachel Hart: 51:55

Maybe I could do it with one. Same.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:59

my plan was I had this sort of half assed plan in my head. Um, Ben had some investments as I won't go into details, but they didn't work out. And, um, I thought, well, you know, perhaps if I've got money, I'll take them out of school, I'll get, uh, like a, a nanny and we'll just go see the world. Not thinking about the practicalities of, you know, tweaking three kids around the world. But, um, well, the one thing that I will spend any disposable income we have on is travel, because I think that is the one gift, the best gift that I can give my kids is to show them it doesn't have to be, you know, Bali and Indonesia. I'd like, I'd like it to be, but just to go and see different parts of the world. I think that's, that's the best use of your, of your

Rachel Hart: 52:35

most important thing to me too. Johnny's been all over. I think he must have been on about 20 flights already. He's only at four. Yeah, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:44

They're great travellers, because Tabby's brilliant. I mean, I introduced the iPad a lot younger than I might have done on a flight to Mexico. I'm like, there you go. Just Peppa Pig for eight hours, off you go. Well, it has been absolutely lovely to talk to you today. I'm sorry that I'm

Rachel Hart: 52:59

for having

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:59

The reason we're speaking is because of, you know, the, because we're in the club nobody wants to be in, but I really like your attitude. I feel like you are such a joyful person and I'm not going to lie to you. When I saw, you know, that you'd lost your husband to suicide when you were pregnant, I'm thinking, gosh, this is going to be a tough interview because, you know, they are, but that's, um, actually I feel like you're this real way of, Sunshine. And I know you said in your application that you wanted to show people that the worst thing can happen and that you can still build a life and find joy in the world. And you absolutely have done that. And I think that you should be immensely proud of yourself. And when your little boy is older, I think he will, he will look you in the eyes and thank you. My, um, my oldest has actually, he's, he's very emotionally, um, uh, intelligent and he, He said to me, uh, just completely happily, you know, mum, I just want you to know that we really appreciate what you did and what you continue to do. And I was like, oh, stop

Rachel Hart: 53:53

Oh,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:54

But carry on, carry on. So yeah, I think that, you know, when they, it takes them a while to realize how amazing we are, but they do get there eventually. So I think

Rachel Hart: 54:04

That's any kid's though, isn't it, to be fair?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:06

Oh yeah. Oh God. I only, I rang my mum from the hospital when I had my first baby and just said, sorry, because I was like, I get it now. That's how you felt about

Rachel Hart: 54:15

disagree. I'm sorry to mind.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:16

through that gap.

Rachel Hart: 54:18

But yeah, I'm going to write a book. Well, I've started writing a book, um, but it is actually called What's the Worst That Could Happen. I've got a few chapters down, but it's, yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult finding the time. And, um, as you know, when you've got children and you work. You don't want to spend your future time writing about trauma in your life. But I feel like it's, I've gotten a good story to share. And like you say, I want to provide hope to people.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:47

Well, this podcast is my book because I wanted to write a book for a long time. I knew it was going to be called Widowed AF. I, I, I had the Instagram page and I just could not get that first page done. I could not do it. And so I just was like, Oh, maybe I should try a podcast thinking I'd do about five episodes and then wimp out. Here we are. But it's,

Rachel Hart: 55:07

Still going.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:08

The outlet to talk about it. And I, I, I think I may use the content from the podcast to do some sort of, of book at some point, but, um, we'll, we'll see, we'll see one challenge at a time, but you let me know if you get any further along with that book and I will absolutely, um, share it because I'd love to read it. I really would

Rachel Hart: 55:24

Mm

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:25

take care of yourself, my darling. Give that little boy squeeze, and I really hope that you'll be kind enough to share some wedding pictures with me when you get married.

Rachel Hart: 55:34

Ah, lovely to meet you, Rosie. Thank you so much for having me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:37

You're so welcome. And for anybody out there that has been affected by today's topics, you can send me a message. I'm, you contact me on Instagram or at widow. af. com. And I can, of course, pass any messages over to you as well, if you're willing to answer them.

Rachel Hart: 55:50

Lovely, yeah, definitely.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:51

But for now, um, everybody out there, you take care of yourselves and I will be back with you soon with another interview.