Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to Widowed AF. I'm your host, I'm Rosie Gilmoss, and I'm your grief sherpa, if you will, on this journey. Now, if you are new to the podcast, welcome. Thank you for joining us. And if you are a regular listener, welcome back. Can you believe that we are about to enter season three? I mean, to be honest, when we started, I wasn't sure we'd get an episode three. Um, Now joining me today is my alive husband jonathan jonathan gilmour's welcome.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 0:29

Hi everybody

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:31

And for those of you again fresh to the podcast I thought it might be helpful just to give you a little bit of an idea of who we are and what we do So if you are a regular listener, you want to chipmunk me about now put me on double speed to get through this bit now We John and I are both widows. Um, my husband Ben died in 2018, and John's wife Sarah died later the same year. So you can hear our full stories if you go back to season one. Uh, we were right at the beginning. But the podcast came about because essentially we were thrust into this world of being widowed before our time, before our peers, before we'd really had chance to live the lives that we'd been promised. And there just didn't seem to be anything out there that spoke to us. We found a lot of support through Way, Widowed and Young, which is absolutely, it's a brilliant resource and it's still the first place I point people. But sometimes you need To hear the real experience, there's a real comfort. There's a real power in the sharing of stories, shared narrative, and that's why widow friendships tend to form, and you find your tribe. But actually in those early days, you perhaps haven't got your tribe yet, and you have no clue what lies ahead. And these stories have given people hope, which was something I perhaps didn't expect to come out of this. And so yes, in theory, this is a really sad podcast. People come, they talk to me, they share their most traumatic experience. They bare their souls and it's like a condensed therapy session. And it, something magical happens in these conversations. Um, I've done it myself. I've told my story and there is, it's quite empowering. You feel like you've taken back a little bit of control because you're telling your story in your own way. At your own time, because, you know, within reason, there's very little time constraints as well. And people have really connected to that, and responded to it. And I found a connection. I found connections I never expected to. That's been the one, I guess, positive of my grief. Because you do, you meet people that you perhaps would never have met ordinarily and you form a bond which initially is based around trauma but then becomes something deep and Like you become kind of soul sisters, soul brothers. It connects you on a level How many times I'm going to say connect in this episode? Should we time this? Count them. Um, but this, this, this This kind of soul bearing that goes on on these microphones It's incredibly powerful and I I still feel very humbled that I I get to do this that people trust me to tell their stories And that people are listening out there and i'm Yeah, anyway, I won't blather on too much, but I just wanted to sort of, you know, explain what it, what it is that we do and, and why we do it. And the plan for this season, whether, whether this'll, it'll continue, um, you know, I have all the greatest goals in January like the rest of you, is that we'll try and put out an episode a week. So I do, I think we've got eight. I'm gonna speak to producer John. How many episodes do we have?

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 3:40

Uh, probably eight. Around ten.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:43

So we, oh, blimey, I was busy last year. So, because we stepped back from doing, uh, two a week, and we went to one every other week, just to give a little bit of breathing space for us, because it, it is quite demanding doing this. Um, and, but I'd like to do something a bit more regularly, so I think we'll, we'll put out, try and put out one of the stories, which is where somebody comes and tells me their story about, Their life of being widowed, what it's, how it's impacted them, and how they've helped, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say heal themselves, but essentially, you know, we, we know you've gotta do it. Um, and then the other episode will be a more informal chat. So something along the lines of what John and I do here. Sometimes it might be John, sometimes it might be me on my own, because. I don't think he's managed to get an episode a word in edgeways so far this episode Um, and sometimes i'm going to invite perhaps former guests or you know people who are widow But maybe don't want to tell their full story, but want to talk about what their life is like So we're going to try a few slightly different formats and see what what you guys think But please do let us know anything that you'd like to see us do anything Please don't tell me anything you hate i've got a very fragile ego But anything that you'd like to see more of anything that you really um, Please do let me know. I am open to suggestion, just not criticism. So last time we spoke to you, we were very excited. We were going off to Jamaica for Christmas. We were going to spend Christmas in paradise. Those white sandy beaches, that hammock, you know, when they, the therapist says, go to, you know, that picture somewhere in your mind, I'm in a hammock on a sandy beach. Um, it didn't entirely. Go to plan.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 5:20

No, it didn't. No, we didn't.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 5:23

Uh, we got to the hotel airport on the Friday evening after having a lovely Christmas day with, with family who came around and we, 'cause we had a sort of unofficial Christmas day and we went to the airport and I hadn't allowed myself to check the weather in Jamaica. I checked the weather and we had quite a serious conversation, didn't we? About do we go? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's. A long way, it's a long flight, you know that there's going to be an impact with jet lag on the kids, we're quite an aura divergent family, so travel is, it does take its toll. But we thought, no, no, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. Are you buckling because this is a story? Okay, um, um, so we do the, the flight, the airport, the horrors that comes with their travel, and we eventually get to the hotel. I won't bore you by having a first world moan about the hotel not being as expected, but it was a bit of a drag. That's

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 6:15

me being very kind.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:19

That's me being very kind. It wasn't quite the paradise. And then you throw in the fact that the weather was rubbish. And all these things. So we're feeling a bit grumpy Brits on holiday. And um, and Hector, our middle son, is starting to look a bit peaky. Now he's, he's got jet lag and he's struggling with the food there. It's not, um, he's got quite a selective diet, but he starts to get kind of weaker and weaker. So we're quite, we can't really go out. We haven't taken turns being in the hotel room. And we obviously were really concerned about him. And on Christmas day, that concern just sort of got too much. And I felt I really needed to have him looked at. So we got the hotel nurse. And she confirmed what we thought, which was that he was very dehydrated. I know, I am going on a bit, sorry. Um, and essentially, me and Hector then had to go to hospital in Jamaica, and it was a tourist hospital, um, but it was still pretty busy. Scary, uh, there was an armed guard on the door And my american listeners will perhaps be more familiar with this concept But you know in the uk at point of treatment, we don't pay for our medical care and emergency care But of course in the caribbean this this was private hospital So from the minute you arrive you are almost shadowed by a man with a credit card machine And they're constantly I digress but so hector's very poorly and We get him seen, and he gets admitted to the ward, and they put him on an IV drip, and he very quickly starts to recover. But he's terribly phobic of needles, and particularly cannulas. So Card you guys will relate if you've got kids, you know having to get your kid to do something that's for their for the best, but that they really don't want to do and I'm just gonna take a minute because this kid was so so brave so brave and he was so stoic And he was trying not to show he was upset in front of me and I'm saying to him It's okay to be upset. You know, I'm your mom I can take it and but it was it what it was scary and it was really frightening and and after he You had kind of recovered quite well from the IV we then asked to leave and uh, they then decided that his condition required him to be admitted to paediatrics. But they didn't have any evidence of this. They wanted to run more tests. They said his liver enzymes were a bit low. Well, he was dehydrated, so they would be. Um, and I realized that I was essentially being kind of manipulated into continuing to pay for treatment. But of course your mum guilt or parental guilt around this, especially if you are prone to catastrophization and overthinking. By the time I got back to the hotel having signed a document that said, you know, I willingly removed my son from medical care against advice despite the risks. I was like, what risks? Um, but in the moment I knew I needed to get him out. He's autistic and he was really struggling with the bright lights and things. So we got him back to the hotel and he did make a full recovery. I will just add in quickly, he's absolutely fine. But it was that, I lay awake all night thinking, what if he's got walking pneumonia? What if he's got sepsis? What if I've just signed my son's death warrant? And The cost of the IV was, was 1, 200. Now we, we can put it on our credit card and they will, our insurance will pay it back. But, I was thinking, bloody hell, what if you don't have insurance? I mean, don't travel without insurance guys, essentially. But, I shudder to think what an overnight stay would have been. But

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 9:38

then, there's, there's also the thing with the travel insurance. Check that, um, because most of the time you've got to pay it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:43

Yeah, that's it, yeah.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 9:45

back. And like, you know. If, like, if they'd admitted him and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:48

I reckon we'd be looking at 25, 000. Um,

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 9:50

you know, how are you gonna raise that in You're stuck in a foreign country, so Got

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:54

it, it's sat in the current account, doesn't everyone? I, I am joking, I am joking.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 9:59

Um, but it's just one of those little things that you don't know until you Until you, until you're faced with it. And the, you know, the way the hospital treated you. Um, and I remember texting you, because, unfortunately, and probably many other cancer widows, A test, especially if it's to do with the digestion, ill tract, um, dehydration is a very real thing and it shows up in a blood test as a liver enzyme, right? Uh, raising.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:25

I tell you what, I was pretty grateful to have my, um, my cancer expert note with that knowledge because you go, liver enzymes. Oh my God, what does that mean? I'm trying to get internet connection. I'm trying to ask Dr. Google, but even having to go because we have other children, obviously we can just abandon them in the hotel. So. I had to go on my own and, you know, I felt incredibly vulnerable just going out in a car off to a hospital. And having to advocate for Hector, to have the strength of conviction that I knew that he was okay to leave, and that that was the best thing for him. But going, then going against, you know, This kind of guilt and I thought this is so manipulative. It's preying on a maternal guilt to spend money that isn't required. And actually I plan to take him to the doctors when we got home, but he's completely fine. He went back to school as normal. So I think what I think happened was he got this awful flu that's been going around and, um, and then got dehydrated. And do you know what, this is a widow podcast and not a my sick kid, but I just wanted to share it with you because, um, yeah, it was, it was a bit of a kick in the, in the fanny really. And I know that. You can't change these things, but we did, I think we all felt a bit defeated. We all felt like we really needed this nice holiday where, because you know it's not a holiday, kids go back to being kids again, and you go out and have lovely meals, and everything, sort of the weight of responsibility of home slips off your shoulders a bit.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 11:48

Yeah, a reset.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:49

But am I romanticising holidays? Because are they really like that with kids? Mmm, sometimes. I don't know, answer's on a postcard from wherever you might be with your kids, having a lovely time in the sunshine. I think Christmas as well is such an emotive time. It's an emotive time, or an emotional time for everybody, because we all put, or the majority of us put, enormous expectations on Christmas and how it's meant to look and appear and, you know. Since when did we have to do, like, table decorations and stuff, you know? Instagram has got a lot to answer for. But when you are widowed, Christmas I'm I'm gonna just say it, I don't think I like Christmas anymore.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 12:26

No. I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:27

really hate that.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 12:28

I, um I wasn't really a fan of Christmas before. Mm. But that comes from the past Um, and then with Sarah dying at the end of November, thanks. Um, and, you know, I had to roll pretty much straight into a funeral and then into Christmas because we still had a little girl. I absolutely detest Christmas and I don't think there's ever a way that I could make it comfortable apart from just to not ignore it. But we can't because

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:57

the kids

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 12:58

need to go. Get the magic down there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:00

They do and I think I don't know I've I because I had a very different childhood. So my childhood memories of christmas are quite positive But I do remember the overwhelm and the overstimulation of it And like I used to go and have a bath in the middle of christmas day It was like just the thing I always did at christmas and we talked quite a bit in the last episode of season two, if you haven't listened, it's available everywhere, about this idea of creating a different experience at Christmas, of trying to almost You can't replicate, can you? You can't replicate the Christmases that you used to have. Because, well, they're not here, are they? So it's impossible. And your family dynamic, no matter how connected you are to their family, it will have shifted. There will be, you know, there's so many shifts that happen. And so, I've done a lot of running from Christmas. I've done several holidays and, um, literally ran into the sea one Christmas day. In the UK, that was, as well. Ooh. Uh. But essentially, it's much like this whole grief analogy, isn't it? You, you know, we flew to Jamaica to escape feeling sad at Christmas. Well, guess what? Still felt sad on Christmas. And it wasn't just because the hotel was shit and my kid was sick. It was because Christmas It's a family time. It's a time where you've seen lots of, you know, these loving families all together. And although we're together, you still, it's that, it's that weird juxtaposition, isn't it? Where you are in a happy family, but you're also grieving a happy family. It's a very surreal.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 14:26

And, and there's also like, we, uh, in the grand schemes of things, like, for, I was with Sarah and you with Ben, uh, have been together a relatively short amount of time with four kids, both coming from our own Christmases, which you build with your own, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:42

traditions, traditions, that's the

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 14:43

word, but then sometimes you, you don't want to pull all your old traditions into your new relationship because, uh, so you got to try and build new traditions whilst they're Just feeling it's all a bit shit anyway. And it's just a really hard thing to do. So, you know, we, we try and we try and we'll try. And we're figuring it out.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:02

And I think last year would have been nice. We went to a hotel in the UK. But I, I, I actually end up in hospital on Christmas Day. On Christmas Day? Yeah, God. Maybe let's just stay home in our pyjamas.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 15:11

I ended up staying out overseas because I got COVID again.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:14

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, no, maybe maybe we

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 15:17

should there's a pattern.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:18

Yeah, there is there is yeah Maybe we'll stay in our pajamas and actually we live next door to a very nice restaurant I'll give the the swan west mauling a little mention. Um, and if they're open on christmas I suggest we book a table there and then we don't even have to do any washing up I'll tell you what. Shall I stop planning next christmas in january? I'm, so sorry listeners. This is not at all Entertaining for you, but you So we came back from Jamaica and we sort of hit the, hit the ground running, so to speak. That, do you know, nobody says that anymore. They always say that in a job interview. We need you to hit the ground running. I'm bringing it back. Uh, we, we came back and we had New Year and we had a really, really lovely New Year's Eve actually this year. We had a small, a party might be pushing it, a gathering. And we had lots of different friends from different backgrounds. Aspects of our lives sort of came together and I really love it when that happens and it works yeah, and it just is this kind of new community that we're building as a family together here in Westmorland where we live and So we sort of went into the into the new year feeling kind of pretty good We did see midnight actually we the kids saw midnight and then we tried to get them to bed and Tabby Tabby who is seven and just Borderline feral honestly, it was like trying to get your mates at the party that won't give up to go to bed Yeah, I think I put my headphones in and she sleeps in our room. I know it's terrible But I um, I think I put my headphones in and just let her chat away to herself and I was probably asleep before she was

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 16:41

I think we both were actually

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:43

but again, you know, I know i'm banging on about this passage of time and and the the effect that has on your grief, but I think it's just New Year, you know, they are left behind another year. It's another year, you know, it's a very obvious passage of time, isn't it? We don't notice the days slipping by, but you notice the years. And this year has a strange date for me because Ben would have been 50 and That's really old, um, sorry if anyone's old, but, you know, I would have teased him mercilessly. We probably, I probably would have had a party for him, which he would have said he didn't want, but actually really liked, and I guess that's, you know, 50th birthday. Is that something that you would celebrate? And I guess, yeah, I, I'm actually sort of toying with doing something on his birthday this year, but I, I, I tell you what it is. I've got this, you know, when you do a party when you're a child and you're scared, no one will come. I'm like, well, what if I invite people to celebrate his birthday and people don't come? Maybe I just invite you like you're not coming. Yeah. Uh, so this is, this is, I'm sorry. This is something I definitely wanted to talk about as well. So I've mentioned that I'm coming up to seven years. You've just passed six years. So we're, we're fairly far down the road in terms of the grieving process. Um, now I can remember when I joined way when I was about six months into it and I was a member for quite a long time, but I remember thinking to myself, Oh my gosh, these people are like seven years and they're still so hurt. Yeah. So broken. And I was quite scared of that because I thought it, It wasn't going to get better. You know, you, you get stuck and you're, you're there forever. And what I now understand is what you see in a Facebook post in a group like way or any of the other support groups is you're seeing a snapshot. So somebody will post there when they are feeling these big feelings and they need somewhere to express it. But it's not necessary. It might be in some cases, it's not necessarily an indicator of how they feel all the time. But because that's all you're seeing when you're in those groups. You fear it, you fear getting stuck into grief and I think sometimes that can kind of propel you to go through it quicker because you're so scared of being seven years down the line and still feeling the pain that you're in right now. And I guess I'm now realizing that I'm still feeling those enormous, overwhelming tidal waves. Why is everything water related? Bend around for new listeners. And they come crashing over you. And you do feel like you did back in those early days. You do. The pain feels just as acute. The sorrow, the anger, the injustice. But it doesn't consume you in the same way it might and it sometimes it might take you down for a day You know, i'm not going to lie to you out there But sometimes even seven years down the line your grief will consume you for a day But what it won't do is have this enormous outreaching impact into every single aspect of your life. It won't in it won't It will it will pass it will pass

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 19:54

and that's the key is you You now understand that even though it's there

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:59

And I think it's really important that we don't, we aren't afraid of saying it, that I, I actually said to my friend, um, on the school run this week, um, yesterday, I said, Oh, you know, I feel seven years and people don't want to hear about it. They want to hear that I'm greedy because it, and I, I tell you what it is. It's that it's fear. It's fear that if something terrible happens to you, that you will still feel terrible in seven years. Well, yes, you will, but you will also feel absolutely amazing, maybe, or average or normal for quite a lot of the rest of the time. It doesn't, I'm going to tell an analogy that I, a friend of mine who, whose son died, she, she gave me an, and I have mentioned this before, so forgive me if you're, if you're having it repeated, but she said to me, it's grief. And I have my hand in front of my face for those of you who are just listening. It's really, really close. You can't see around your hand. You know, you can't see anything. And then it just sort of pulls back a little and you can peek around it. So it's always there in your sort of peripheral vision, you know? It never leaves you, but you can see the joy and Even just being able to function, right? I just wanted some reassurance that I was going to be able to function. That I was going to want to brush my teeth again. That I was going to be able to Giggle with the kids, and I think I want this this place to be a reassurance to you that you will feel all of those things again and Don't be afraid of your grief because it is scary and you were so scared of being plunged back into that darkness I I the thought of it is actually even as I'm saying it's making my skin tingle the thought of being there

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 21:34

and my therapist one said to me Although it's scary, a scary place to be when you're in the pits of it. The worst has happened. So actually all you're doing is reliving that fear of the worst happening inside of your grief as well. Um, and once you start to understand what it is, then you can allow it to be. And then once you allow it to be, it, it Doesn't hit you as often.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:59

And it comes, I think so much of that is in the talking. We know that if you say something that you're ashamed of out loud, or even if you say it to yourself in the woods, or you tell the dog or the cat or the pillow, it relieves some of that shame, some of that weights. So I, I think having somebody that, you know, however you might be 15 years down the line, 20, you know, however far it is, I think every, we all need somebody that we can talk to about it. And. I, I think you could always say to your friends, you know, are you okay with me talking about this? And I guarantee they're going to say, of course, of course. But there are people, widows and other people, who've suffered enormous losses, who have been told not to talk about it. And that, that, that, it gags you. It, it, it silences you. It takes your voice away. And what happens when you can't speak about this pain is you internalize it and you get really sad. And I don't want that for you. So, um, You always have somewhere that you can come and talk about it here, you know, I, I, you can always come and you can tell your story on if you wish, or you can just message me and tell me, you know, it's, I, yeah, we all, we all might be a therapist, actually my therapist, I mean, I think she was, she was going to need a lie down after this morning session. Alongside the Juggernaut that is widowed AF. This, this great, amazing, wonderful baby of ours that we, we treasure. We have, um, I have done another podcast. Some of you may have heard me mention this before. But, um, I'd like to kind of get you guys to come over and have a listen to it. Because it's called Chatty AF. So, um, So it's a similar format to this. It is a conversational podcast where I invite people to come on or they cut, they ask to come on and they talk about their story. And it tends at the moment, I've, I've done a few conversations with experts. I've done the one with a menopause, one on special educational needs. But I want to give a voice to people that have had a unique, it could be a, a, like a really amazing story or it could be a tragedy or it could be, I don't know, you know, that idea that everybody's got a story. Okay, so the tagline for Widowed AF. Is because every widow has a story chatty AF. I'd like it to kind of become the place where people with a story come to tell it. And I'm not going to go touting for celebrities and big names. Of course, you know, if you're listening and you'd like to come on, be my guest, but I want this to get like, wow, I want it to be somewhere where I hesitate to use the word normal, but everyday people, you know, people can come on and have a, a platform, a space to talk that they wouldn't necessarily have in ordinary life. So. Um, we're going to kick off season two of Chatty AF, um, with quite a, a, a big episode. Okay? It is an episode about suicide. And, um It is from a father's perspective And this is a lovely man called Stuart Faulkner who was a friend of mine. I've known Stuart since I was 17 We we we we we separated apart. I haven't spoken to him for a long time, but Because of our shared experience of tragedy We've had some contact but i've never really heard his story You know because you don't when somebody's child has taken their own life. Um, and his child was 14 You don't pop round and ask You know, what led to it or how, and you don't, you don't wish to pine. And also I didn't understand. I didn't understand what that enormous loss felt like then, because it was before I'd lost Ben. So. Stuart Kate came onto the podcast, we spoke, and it was incredibly, uh, powerful moving of course. So I would say just approach it with a little caution, but it's not gratuitous in any way. It's, it's, it's, that was never my intention. It is, it is an exploration into the human experience of loss and the loss of a child and. What that means for you, for your relationships, for your, your other children or child, it's, it's really, really powerful. And I think it's an important lesson because We can't just not talk about it. We, we, we can't pretend that an increase in particularly young men taking their own lives is not happening. And I am in, again, I, I feel quite humbled that Stuart came to talk to me because it, it, it's a very difficult thing to talk about. And he did an incredible job and he set up a charity called the Ollie Foundation, which I will talk more about in the, in the episode. But I, I would really love you to come and listen to it. Um, if you could leave me a bit of feedback as well at the reviews, that would be really, really helpful. Um, and I've got other guests lined up as well, so there's plenty of episodes. There should be something, I think there's a smorgasbord of episodes, something for everyone.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 26:43

And just to jump in on, uh, Stuart's episode from, uh, from the male's perspective. So you guys out there, I know you're listening because I can see the stats. Um, he, um, where you, where you get from this interview is, uh, Uh, a man who's gone on a, a, a, a, a more advanced journey than me, he's obviously further in because he went off and did a, um, uh, a qualification in counselling and explored all the attachment styles. But the, uh, the impact of what happened with his son forced him To confront his past, to find out why he reacts to certain things in certain ways, and he, he, he openly talks and quite frankly talks about understanding himself and how he now understands how past relationships didn't have a chance because of what's in the past, and, and that's very relevant to what we're us guys are all going through it because of that grief. Um, you know, head doors

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:34

box gets opened.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 27:35

Yeah. It hits you. And the only thing you can do is, is try and put things, the boxes back as straight as possible. And if you have the energy, have a cleanup while you're there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:45

Yeah.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 27:45

Um, in order then build your life forward. And it's the first time I've heard anyone speak. Um. about a similar process that I'm still going through. I'm still, I'm still like learning. I'm just, just out of the gym, but, um, uh, well, just out of training, should I say? Um, but it's an incredibly powerful thing to do. Once you understand that, actually, I'm reacting to this trivial thing

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:08

because,

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 28:09

because this plus this, plus this, plus this, and this is, and your brain is designed to protect you. It wants to keep you alive. It does it the wrong way. You know, you might lean in the booze, you might. Uh, drive fast, cars too fast, because that's what your brain thinks is protecting you from, from these, the feelings, and it's not the feelings that hurt you, it's the physical that hurts you, but it, it, it takes a while to get there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:35

Yeah, you're right though, it was an incredibly open interview, in terms of him talking about his past, his own mental health situation. And this idea that when something terrible happens, that will be the factor that drives you to therapy. Most of us, unless we're having problems in our lives, will not just go to talk therapy because it's, you know, it's expensive and you perhaps think you don't need it. But many of us will have issues that we have repressed, that we don't talk about, that will have impacted, shaped us and I don't, I'm not even talking about enormous trauma here. There'll be things that will impact your, your reactions to grief and, and, and adversity. And if you seek counselling for your grief, um, some people will do a six week course or they'll do a EMDR or something like that and that will be it. But for those of us who go into prolonged talk therapy, you will. Have to do some self some navel gazing actually

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 29:28

the cliche is true Tell me about your childhood or the day don't go that direct. You just got up,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:33

but what

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 29:33

about this? Yeah, damn you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:35

Well my friends I'd get therapy this morning and then I just saw my friend jazz and she said oh How was it and I said, well, you know when you you know You sort of have a raw nerve and then somebody pokes it a bit like that today But I also know that I need that because I mask so efficiently, not just my, my neurodiversity, but my grief that I will go in and I would, I probably are, if, if she would talk to me about, I mean, I'm desperate to know about her life, I've known her for three years, I know nothing. And I, you know, I'd just go in and sort of, you know, tell her she looks nice and because I would be. Avoidance. I'd be using avoidance because I don't want to poke that, that raw nerve. But ultimately, and it has, you know, it hasn't been easy. It's, there's been times I've had to be walked into therapy, but it, I, I think ultimately the understanding that comes from it is better but you can hear from Stuart that the work that he has done to rebuild himself because of this cataclysmic event that happened has led to him understanding himself better. And in no way would he, you know. Say that his life is better without his son in it, but his understanding of himself is better.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 30:39

Yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:40

And I think it, again, it offers a bit of hope because, fuck me, you know, who thinks, how, you just think, oh, I wouldn't survive that. That would finish me off. And we say that. But actually, he did survive it, and so did Sistella, his ex wife, you know, they did survive it. And it hasn't been easy, but they did, and I think this is why it's important to listen. So I think that's probably it from us for today, but thank you for listening. Thank you for bearing with us Thank you for listening to my very detailed description of a trip to the hospital That wasn't anywhere near as detailed as I could have gone. You're very lucky Um, I think producer john has a couple of administrative

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 31:24

Uh, I do, I do. Cause obviously, um, running the outside world, it looks like I do nothing. But I've got, there's lots of legs running around. So, um, we're going to be launching Lots of legs running around. Lots of legs running around. Lots of legs. Um, uh, we're going to be moving the website to a new, uh, style of website soon, which should make it easier to manage and for us to, uh Keeping in contact a newsletter. We are going to start going soon. I promise. I know quite a few of you have signed up already and never got an email from me, but it will happen soon. Um, and everybody who is waiting for the invites to come out, there will be out in the next week or so, and we will be booking from February onwards. So when that email comes, get on it. Cause there's a slot a week and they very, very quickly feel that we generally get six months worth. Um, within a, within a couple of days of the emails going out, so, uh, keep an eye out.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:14

It's making me blush.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 32:15

Keep an eye out, and, um We'll look forward to having you on the show.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:19

Yeah, and actually guys, if, again, if you have got an interesting story, or if you, you have been a guest on WAF and you would like to come and talk about what your life looks now, if you've made some significant changes, um, then please, please do let me know because I, I, I, I'm happy to talk about pretty much anything. There are some caveats, but pretty much anything. But for now, thank you once again for sticking with us and lots of love, take care of yourselves out there. And I'm going to say it. I'll be back with you next week with an episode. There you go. I've committed it now.

Jonathan Gill-Moss: 32:52

Bye bye.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:52

Bye.