Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:02

Hello and a very warm welcome back to Widowed AF. You're here with me, I'm your host Rosie Gilmoss. Before we go into today's episode, I just wanted to give you guys a bit of a heads up because it is different to anything that you'll have heard from us before. It's different because today's guest is going to talk about the night her husband was murdered in their home. It sounds, and indeed it is, the stuff of nightmares and horror films. It's, I guess, everybody's greatest fear and For her to be able to come on and talk to me about it, it's just incredible. She's so, and I hate, I know we hate this word, but she is really, really brave. So have a listen. You might be surprised by the fact that there's a little bit of laughing going on, but you know, that's widow humor for you. So the next voices you're going to hear will be me and Katrina. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce you to my friend Katrina and a very warm welcome it is. Hello Kat, welcome to the podcast.

Katrina Smith: 0:57

Hey Rosie, thank you. It's good to finally be here.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00

I'm, I'm really, really, I'm, I'm kind of nervous. I'm excited. I'm a whole whirlwind of emotions about this because Katrina and I, we've known each other since the right at the beginning, haven't we?

Katrina Smith: 1:14

Yeah, few months after.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16

Yeah, so Ben died on the 12th of March and Katrina's husband died on the 31st. So, and both their deaths, I mean, I will let Katrina tell you, um, in more detail herself, but both their deaths were, were, were sudden and traumatic. So we kind of clung to each other from across the Atlantic, didn't we? You know, we would just, talk to each other and we used to send like random little parcels over to each other. I sent you the British classic that is Marmite, which, um, I don't believe you were a huge fan of.

Katrina Smith: 1:47

Not my favorite. But you also sent me a bracelet that said keep fucking going. And I wore that for years.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:54

you had, you sent me one that said breathe and I wore that till it fell apart and I think I fared better with the American sweets as well. It does mean that I know your story and I know it. more than, you know, a lot of some, normally I'll just have a kind of basic outline before I speak to somebody here. So I know that this is going to be really shocking. I know it's going to be upsetting. And I think, but I also know that it's going to be really powerful. And, um, a lot of the work you do now is around giving victims a voice. So I'm trying not to give away your story too much. In fact, I'm going to just let you take the floor if that's all right. So without any further ado, I'm going to let you tell your story. Oh,

Katrina Smith: 2:39

I mean, I guess starting to be getting, you know, where my husband and I first met. Um, so it's a little bit scandalous. Um, when I first met Josh, I was still dating my high school boyfriend. We had been together like seven years or so. Um, and you know, it was, But, um, I, uh, my best friend, Rachel had moved into a new condo and she became friends with her neighbor, Dustin. And they eventually, you know, started like having parties together and hanging out together. And Josh was Dustin's best friend. So we met each other through our best friends. And,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:20

that's me cute stuff out there, isn't it?

Katrina Smith: 3:22

Right? Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I just remember at a party one night, Josh had been frustrating with dating or something and he was just like, I just want to meet a vegetarian woman who is an atheist and doesn't want kids. And I was like, Oh, okay. That sounds like me. Right, right. Um, so, yeah, eventually, you know, we started talking. We mainly started talking through, um, you know, just like online through Facebook chat or whatever. Uh, and eventually, yeah, I broke up with my high school boyfriend. We hadn't done anything before that, so it wasn't too scandalous.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:56

judgment here. Judgment free zone, you're good. I was actually with somebody else when I met Ben, so.

Katrina Smith: 4:03

Oh, wow. Another similarity. We

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:05

I know.

Katrina Smith: 4:08

Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:10

No, sorry, too dark, too dark, too dark.

Katrina Smith: 4:13

Love it. Um, yeah. So we, you know, started dating. We moved in pretty quick together. We actually moved into my friend Rachel's house for a while. We were roommates with her. Um, and then we rented another little house and another little house. And, uh, after about five years of dating, we got married. Yeah. And then we were married for three years, uh, before he was killed. Um, and I don't, should I get to that? Is it any more background we want?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:46

Are you ready? Are you ready? Because you've just, you've, maybe you've just said, you've just said there that, that Josh was killed. And that is the ultimate horror of this, uh, this story is the fact that he was taken from you in such a brutal way. And I think it is something that for most people really is the stuff of nightmares. It's the cold sweats waking in the night. And what you're about to share is, is the reality. It's the truth. And I think that's, um, I really hate calling my guests brave, but you know who you are, right? I don't think you can be called anything other than brave. So yeah, if, if you're, if you're comfortable doing so, my lovely, you, you, you tell us a story and you can stop at any time. Okay. That's a cat, isn't it? Is that a

Katrina Smith: 5:34

Oh, a dog collar. Yeah. There's dogs and cats here. They might make appearances.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 5:39

I just wanted to explain. For the recording, the Santa bells were not part of the story.

Katrina Smith: 5:45

Right, right. No, that

Rosie Gill-Moss: 5:46

Let's go into it laughing. This is how we've got through the last nearly seven years. So yeah, go on, cat. You tell us your story, my love.

Katrina Smith: 5:53

Yeah. All right. Um, so Josh and I were living in a house in a nice historic neighborhood. Historic where I come from, you know, the early 1900s. I know that's much different for y'all over there. Um, but yeah, beautiful neighborhood, you know, the historic neighborhoods tend to be a little, you know, upper middle class, nice neighborhood. We loved it. We were just renting and dreamed of buying there someday. Um, And we had gone, you know, to sleep one night, normal Friday night, I think we made enchiladas for dinner, and some cocktails, um, and went to bed. And at about 2am, uh, I wake up to our bedroom door being opened. Uh, we usually slept with the bedroom door closed because the cats could be kind of annoying at night, uh, so we, we would kick them out. Um, but we were sleeping, and the bedroom door opened. And all I remember seeing is Is a silhouette of a man. So we had a nightlight on kind of down the hallway. So he was backlit and I just remember crazy wild hair and just a figure of a man standing there. I immediately start screaming like I've never screamed before. Um, Josh. Without hesitation, he was on the other side of the bed, runs in front of the bed, and out the bedroom door just to confront whatever that man was, whatever was going on. I could no longer see either of them. Um, I grabbed my phone and hide under the bed in our bedroom to call 911. Um, out in the dining room, um, you know, I think maybe a fight's going on. I hear some grunts, you know, like he's being punched, just like, uh, kind of things. I don't hear screaming. I don't hear gunshots. You know, I'm thinking like, all right, they're, they're fighting. Um, and then the man says, or yeah, he says, tell me where your wife is and I won't hurt you. Tell me where your wife is and I won't kill you. Um, and of course Josh doesn't say anything. Uh, and all this time I'm still on the phone with 911 and I'm relaying to the operator, you know, everything I'm hearing. Um, of course she's telling me, you know, stay put, do not go out there, do not, you know, see what's happening. Um, and, you know, eventually the grunting stops and I hear the front door open. So I'm like, okay, uh, you know, maybe he left, maybe Josh left with him. Um, still didn't hear anything super concerning like dead shots or screaming or anything like that. Um, so I'm telling the 911 operator, you know, like, it's quiet. It's completely quiet. Um, and she, you know, just tells me to stay there, wait for the police to come. Do not leave under the bed until the police are at my house. Um, and I'm like, okay, come quick. You know, I don't know where they're at. And the 911 operator is telling me like, okay, the police are here. You don't, you don't see them. You don't hear them. And I'm like, No, do you have the right house? Like, um, and I guess the police did respond fairly quickly, uh, as they had been just about two blocks over, uh, responding to an arson that this man had caused, uh, before he came over to my house. Um, so the police were at my house fairly quickly, uh, but they did not enter the house. And that is a key detail in this situation. Uh, so they caught the man in my front yard. Um, he was covered in blood. And the police were kind of just shooting the shit with him, you know, joking, like, heh heh, what'd you do to yourself, where you have blood all over yourself? Um, or like, oh, I knew we'd see you again later this week, cause I guess they had some interactions with him previously. Um, so still, I'm begging the police, the 911 operator, like, tell them to come inside, like, I don't know what's going on in my house, I don't know if there's a second man in my house, you know, holding a gun to Josh's head, I don't know what's going on. Um, so eventually I start seeing police, like, flashlights, uh, outside the window, and so in my position, I'm able to, like, reach my hand out from under my bed, and I just started, like, banging on the window to let them know, like, hey, someone's in here, like, get inside this fucking house. Um, so they did, suddenly flashlights everywhere in my house, and come out from under the bed, and a police officer just starts bear hugging me from behind, like, Out of the house, and as he's walking me out the front door, I see Josh on the floor in our dining room, um, kind of fetal position, uh, he's looked like he's knocked out, um, now I don't know if this is my brain protecting me, but I didn't, I didn't see anything too concerning, um, didn't see blood and, or anything, uh, just looked like, I was like, okay, he, he got punched, like, really hard, and, um, We're going to wait for an ambulance to come, like literally what was going through my head at that moment. And this sounds crazy. It's like, okay, I got to find your insurance cards like we're going to the hospital where my insurance cards. I need to go grab my wallet. So we can go to the hospital. So please, you know, bear hug me outside my house. Uh, sit me on the grass in my lawn, just in my pajamas, um, and I'm just sitting there and no one's coming up to me, no one's telling me anything, um, and eventually they start putting up that yellow crying scene tape that you see in movies, um, outside my front lawn, and that's kind of when I lost it, and I just remember, like, screaming at an officer, like, tell me what is going on, um, and still nothing. And eventually, uh, my neighbor had, had come over, you know, with, with all the ruckus and all the police, like, this was about two in the morning, um, and she went up and, and had talked to a police officer, and then she walks over to me and says, Katrina, I'm so sorry. And I look at the police officer and I go, why is she telling me she's sorry? What's going on? Why won't you tell me what's going on? And the officer looks at me and says, I'm sorry, sweetheart, your husband passed away in there. And I wanted to puke and punch him at the same time. Um, one of my biggest pet peeves is men calling me sweetheart or sweetie. And I was just so angry at him in that moment. I know it sounds silly, uh, for calling me sweetheart. And, um, I just, I don't know, I had a weird out of body experience. I can still picture myself sitting on my lawn, um, in that moment. Um, and Things are a little chaotic. Uh, I can hear the man, they have him in the back of a police car, singing country music.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:49

Oh my God. How, that's so creepy.

Katrina Smith: 12:54

of the police officers. Yes. Um, and eventually, you know, they, they asked me, they sent like a victim services kind of van over, which I guess is like an extension of the police department, you know, just kind of a team that comes out and deals with the, the victim element of violent crimes. They sit me in the back of this van, and I am in the back of this van for, for over four hours, maybe five hours,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:25

what? Oh my,

Katrina Smith: 13:28

the detective was up the street working on the arson that man had just dealt with. So all the while, I don't have anything. I don't have my glasses. I don't have my phone. I can't call anyone. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:42

oh my God, I didn't know this. Jesus

Katrina Smith: 13:45

it was, it was a bullshit show of things that went wrong that night. That's it. Um, the, the victims people, the caseworker people are telling me what a cute neighborhood I live in. Uh, yeah, which was absolutely inappropriate, uh, the neighborhood my husband had just been murdered in. Um, I was like, yeah, yeah. And I was just like, I don't know, in a daze. They did bring my dog out to me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:09

oh, small mercies.

Katrina Smith: 14:11

right, right. Um, and you know, eventually the detective came and spoke to me. Um, she, you know, asked me a few basic questions and asked me if I wanted to know what happened to Josh. Um, and I said, no, uh, I assumed he was choked to death. Um, cause I didn't see blood. I didn't see, you know, anything violent going on. Um, then at one point she's like, uh, can I show you a picture of something we found in front of your house? And I'm like, sure. And it's a knife. And she's like, is this your knife? And I was like, I don't fucking know. You know, it's, it's a silver knife with a black handle. They all look the same. Um, so at that point they drove me to my parents house, which was just about 10 minutes away. My folks live super close. And, uh, just kind of, you know, um, what are the things I'll always remember? And I can still hear this in my head is I called my mom and I said, mom, are you home? Um, just stay there. Something happened. The police are driving me over and is this van is driving up to my parents house, like my parents are waiting in the front yard for me and they see me and my dog come out and they're like, where's Josh, what happened? And I can just still hear it in my voice and I just. He was murdered. Um, and yeah, then, then from there, it's a bit of a daze of calling people and figuring out what the fuck just happened. Um, my dad called Josh's parents and Josh's brother. Um, my mom called my best friend, Rachel, who lives in California. Um, and immediately, uh, Rachel was with this guy. She had just started dating. Um, he drove her eight hours from Los Angeles to Phoenix, like immediately. Um, and took a one way plane to get back, which I will

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:17

they still together?

Katrina Smith: 16:18

for him. They are. Yes. So shout out to Danny and Rachel. Yes. Yes. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's just a bit of, a bit of a days from there. Um, We learned a lot in the months following that. I did hire a lawyer, um, I wasn't really sure why I was hiring a lawyer in the first place. I guess I just thought the to get to me and into my house was a little slow, especially since they had just been up the street and responded, um, so quickly and apprehended the man so quickly. Um, but

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:58

And it was really It was a long time as well, wasn't it? From when you made the call to when the police came in and then when the medics came.

Katrina Smith: 17:07

so the amount of time from when I made the call to when the police came and ushered me out of my bed was, uh, over 11 minutes, uh, but I believe the police were in the front yard, um, apprehending the man within like 3 or 4 minutes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:23

So, and nobody thought to enter the house at this point.

Katrina Smith: 17:27

no, um, and we, we know all this and, you know, luckily, thankfully, and I use those terms very loosely, is, uh, the responding officer to my house was wearing a body camera, which is not something most officers do here. Very few officers, uh, wear body cameras. Um, and that's how we learned, you know, they were just kind of in the front yard shooting the shit, uh, with this man all the while. Um. is dying in my dining room. Um, and I guess I haven't explained or told you how he was killed yet. Uh, cause I just, you know, had assumed he was strangled. Um, but he, he was stabbed to death. Um, and I didn't learn because I didn't want to until gosh, maybe just a year or two ago. Uh, that he was stabbed to death over or stabbed over a dozen times. Um, a lot of the wounds were on his hands, they were defensive wounds, uh, but the one that was kind of the fatal blow was, uh, in, kind of under his armpit. In the ribcage, uh, so it went through into the lungs. Um, and side note, Rosie, this is really weird. Uh, before I knew he was stabbed there and that was painted to say it'll blow, I have a Josh Memorial tattoo right here in the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:41

I know you have that tattoo.

Katrina Smith: 18:44

Yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:44

That's weird.

Katrina Smith: 18:46

Yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:47

But also, could Kat, you, you said that when, um, all this was happening, there was no screaming. And I'm wondering, do you think that he was quiet to protect you, just so as not to frighten you?

Katrina Smith: 19:00

I, yeah, I, I have no idea. I mean, I did hear the grunts. Um, I'm not sure if that's just It's his natural reaction to pain or what was going on. Um, I guess I had never heard him scream. Um, he had no reason to, but yeah, that is something that I think about a lot. It's just what he was going through then and how scared he must have been and how, I mean, obviously he, he was trying to protect me. That man said, tell me where your wife is and I won't kill you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:33

I know, I know. What a man,

Katrina Smith: 19:36

say anything.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:37

what a wonderful man.

Katrina Smith: 19:39

Yes. Yeah, and something I, I'm not religious, I don't pray, but I use the word, you know, I, I just hope he was alive when the police were taking me out of the house just so he

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:52

Knew you were

Katrina Smith: 19:53

know that, save me. Yeah. Um, yeah, so, yeah, we know Josh was dying on my floor, um, as the police were just outside shooting the shit with this man.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:09

And they were being quite flippant, weren't they? They were making really jokey, banter y type comments with this guy,

Katrina Smith: 20:18

Yes,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:19

Even, even if they didn't know that Josh was, you know, dying, you'd think that they would have accessed the house to just check that you were okay, that nothing

Katrina Smith: 20:32

And that's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:33

comprehend it. Yeah.

Katrina Smith: 20:35

Especially after he's been apprehended, like, um. So yeah, the police fucked up big time, and a lot of my anger is held towards the Phoenix Police Department. Um, I, I know I am angry at the man that killed him, but I am also incredibly angry at the Phoenix Police Department. They're supposed to be the helpers. Um, you know, you, you call the police when you need help, that's what you've been told, uh, since, since you were a little kid, uh, and I needed help, and they didn't, I mean, the man even left my house on his own accord, um, so we, we did, sorry, go ahead.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:11

Well, I was just going to ask, Do you, I mean, do they know what prompted it? Why, why you? Why your house? Why this guy? Because he'd already been apprehended for arson up the streets and then he, I mean, I was, I'm assuming mental health issues and, and I mean, you kind of tell me in more detail.

Katrina Smith: 21:32

Yeah, sure, so this man was just kind of on a night of terror, um, prior to setting a small apartment complex on fire, he had tried to, an assault a young woman getting out of her car. Mm hmm. So he had chased her like into her backyard, broke through a glass door. Um, and she ran into a neighbor's house and that's when he set the whole kind of apartment complex on fire. Um, luckily it was put out in a reasonable amount of time and there wasn't too much damage or, um, any, anyone hurt over there and he just, yeah, I think he was just looking. For houses, I don't know, houses to go into. I don't know why our house specifically. Um, I've thought about that a lot. Um, I don't think there was anything that our house stood out from other houses. Um, but he, uh, was, uh, schizophrenic and on meth.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:26

Wow.

Katrina Smith: 22:27

He was, what he says is he thought people were out to get him, and so he was looking for places to hide. Um, and when Josh confronted him, he was scared, um, right? Uh, so he, Reacted by stabbing him to death.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:49

And did he go to court and sort of plead diminished responsibility for his actions?

Katrina Smith: 22:56

yeah, the, so the court process, the criminal court process was really interesting. Uh, we also went through a civil court process because I did sue the police department and some of these, um, community mental health agencies that were supposed to be tracking him, um, and, and got a significant settlement from the police department, which, um, tells me they don't even wanna go to court. They, they knew they fucked up big time. So. They were just like, okay, we'll, we'll make this go away, uh, from the criminal court side of things. Yeah, so, uh, he did go through the hearing to see if he was mentally competent to stand trial. Um, and, uh, it was the first expert said, no, he was not competent. Then a second expert was brought in and said, yes, he is competent. Um, and so there was kind of a differing of opinions there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:46

Did you say the second, um, doctor was rotten?

Katrina Smith: 23:51

I mean, I don't know anything about them. They're an expert, but he said he was competent to stand

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:56

And you, and you don't think he was?

Katrina Smith: 23:58

I think he definitely had mental health issues. Um, obviously enough to kill a man in his own home. Um, but, and I think it was amplified by the meth that he was on. Do you think he probably knew what was going on though? Um, and as my lawyer had told me, you know, once, This man was in prison and got medicated and sobered up a bit. He, he did seem competent enough to know what was going on. Um, I did not go to any of the court scene or court hearings. I did not want to see that man. Um, I was terrified of him. Uh, the, the last time I saw him was, you know, the, the night my world slipped apart.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:43

And that shadow, that outline, that must be, I mean it, yeah.

Katrina Smith: 24:47

That silhouette. Yeah. Yeah. So,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:50

Did, did he show any remorse once he was sort of medicated and getting treatment?

Katrina Smith: 24:56

um, just kind of, you know, basic like when you're in court pleading to the judge, like, you know, I'm sorry I did that.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:04

Please don't, please don't put me away forever, but yeah.

Katrina Smith: 25:07

Right. So it ended after. Four years of hearing. So we also had a pandemic in the middle of that. So, you know, things were

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:15

We certainly did.

Katrina Smith: 25:16

from that. Um, so it was one week before the fifth anniversary. Um, he pled guilty. So what that means is it doesn't go through court. It doesn't go through trial. He, him and the prosecutor agreed on a sentence. Um, so he got 25 years for the murder of Josh plus 10 years for the arson up the street, uh, and those are set to be run consecutively. So 35 years total.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:42

it's interesting that there's not that. I mean, it's a big difference, but it's not as significant a difference I would have expected for the two crimes. I would have expected a much bigger sentence.

Katrina Smith: 25:53

right. Um, I, I do agree with that. And especially because, you know, 25 is the minimum for murder. And it's not like Josh did anything to provoke this. It wasn't like he was out

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:05

it wasn't a

Katrina Smith: 26:05

shouting at him or threatening. Exactly. Right, right. This man entered our home while we were sleeping. Like, Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:13

the ultimate isn't it? The ultimate. that somebody crossing the threshold of your castle of your home and, um, you know, I actually, I mean, it's nothing in comparison to this, but when I was at university, I was at university in London and I had a little, um, two up, two down student house with a friend and, um, my door opened, my bedroom door one night and, um, I sort of sat up, saw there was a man in the doorway, and then went back, lay back, and closed my eyes again, and it took that sort of real delay for me to realize that there was some, a man in my room. Now, my, my boyfriend at the time was there, and he got him out of the house, and, um, and the police did turn up for me, actually, um, which was decent of them, um, but, and nothing happened. There was no Uh, injury, there was no harm. Um, he took my passport, that was it. But even in that one, kind of 20 seconds of my life, that terror of the realization there is somebody in your home, and for that to happen to you, and for that nightmare to just exacerbate, for it to just explode, um, and I don't think I'm the only person that will be wondering how the fuck You begin to recover from that because I'm a widow, obviously, and all my guests are widows. And some of them, their partners have died in horrible, shocking ways. Some have taken their own lives. Some has been drugged. But I just think that there is nothing as terrifying as this. And like, what did you do? How did you even begin to unpick this trauma? Because I know that you're an incredible human being and that you're doing amazing things and I want you to tell us more about this, but where did you begin? Like, what on earth did you do first?

Katrina Smith: 27:56

You know, something that you don't realize is so important until it's taken away is a sense of safety. Um, it's something we just, you know, most of us in, in, you know, our lives just kind of go, go about, um, just feeling somewhat normal sense of safety, especially in your own home. Um, and when that's taken away, uh, especially in your own home, it is constantly terrifying. Um, so I did live with my parents for about six months afterwards, um, before I rented my own place. Um, and I was getting a lot of therapy. Uh, for a while I was seeing two therapists, um, one of my trauma, um, specialty therapists of my own and one that my work had provided me with. Um, and my trauma therapist, we did a lot of EMDR therapy.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:48

I was going to ask you about EMDR because it's, it's, you've, you really recommend it. You really found it helpful, didn't you?

Katrina Smith: 28:55

Yes, yes, I think that is the thing I credit most with helping my fear issues. Um, it's, it's hard going into EMDR therapy. I mean, the goals kind of put you emotionally back in that situation. Um, but it's really helped with my fear and we, we still do it occasionally if, if issues come up for me. Um, but that. Was super helpful. Um, and I just, you know, I, I, I sleep with a loaded gun by my bed

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:23

Do you?

Katrina Smith: 29:24

I do. I prior to this. I never owned a gun strongly anti gun. Um, but, uh, you know, my, my aunt is a instructor for the NRA and when I was ready and I brought it up and asked her to, you know, she, she took me out. We learned how to shoot. She helped me pick one out. And yeah, it's, Loaded and ready to go right at my bedside. I don't have children at my home. So, um, but it's, I also have a hundred pound German shepherd. I have cameras all on my property. I have house alarms, doors that beep when they open, you know, all these just security measures I never had before, uh, just to feel safe in my own home. And it, it does provide a sense of safety. Um, but

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:06

And you bought your own home, haven't you now? So you've sort of, you've created your own castle, as it were.

Katrina Smith: 30:12

yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. And. Yeah, most of the time I do feel safe here. There are, you know, things, things always come up occasionally and, you know, sometimes it's scary at night and just,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:24

what, what about stuff like, um, TV? Like, I know this sounds like a really stupid thing, but I, for example, cannot watch a program where there's a drowned body. I, I, I haven't, obviously, I've never seen Ben's body. I do not want to see the possibility of what it might look like. Now, your story is much more likely to be kind of replicated in books, TV shows, films, for the very fact that it is our worst fear as a human being. So, You must be exposed to that more than you're comfortable with. Do you, are you okay with that? I know that you binge watched The Office for like three years straight.

Katrina Smith: 31:00

True. Yes. Yes. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting question. Um, I am no longer interested in true crime. I used to be, you know, into those podcasts and those shows, you know, on the Discovery Channel. Zero interest in those. Um, and it, when I do think about those situations, like I think, uh, Netflix released one recently about Jeffrey Dahmer and I remember the victim's families in that situation were not happy about that. And I felt for them so much. Um, and I just kind of think about that from the victim perspective now and how this is, this is entertainment to people. Um, these stories are what people listen to while they're doing the dishes or watch when they want to chill when they come home from work. And these are the worst times people die. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:50

so often they focus on the more salacious details, you know, of the murders, of the crime. And actually the victim's voice in this gets forgotten. Um,

Katrina Smith: 32:00

Yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:01

and just quickly, did you, you've done, um, I know that America is, is much more progressive in many ways, not, not at all, um, than us, uh, in, in terms of trauma treatment, because you guys can access, um, MDMA therapies and ketamine therapies relatively easily, I believe, and we can, we can access ketamine therapy here, but it's very, very expensive. Um, and I just wondered if you were comfortable sharing anything about those, just cause I'm, for me, really, I'm a bit curious.

Katrina Smith: 32:29

right. Um, so currently, uh, MDA MDMA therapy is not legal. It's in its final phases of trial with the Food and Drug Administration. So it's getting close. Um, and there are some practitioners that will help you with that, um, kind of, you know, off, off the record. Um, but ketamine therapy is legal and, um, it's called off label. So, so. Ketamine is typically used as like a sedative, um, for surgeries, but you can use it off label also for mental health treatment. Um, and I did do ketamine, ketamine therapy, uh, when my depression was really bad. Um, that first, uh, probably about nine months, I remember, I think it was in December when I started the ketamine therapy, just being in this really deep, dark hole. Um, and I had a trip to, uh, Patagonia, um, Argentina over Christmas, my first Christmas, you know, without Josh. And I just remember thinking, like, I don't know, like, do I have to come home from this trip? Like, I don't know, scary thoughts that I didn't like myself having that I never had before. So I was able to do ketamine therapy, um, which shows a lot of treatment or promise for treatment for depression. And specifically for people who have been trying You know, who have been suffering depression for years, uh, and things have been resistant to medication. Um, you know, I was kind of just, I, uh, was in, you know, an ignorant bliss before all this. Never had any anxiety, never had depression, had a pretty easy family life. Grandparents died at a normal age. Um, things, you know, You know, life, life was pretty easy in that sense, but when the depression hit, it hit hard. Um, so we were able to do, yeah, ketamine therapy. And that definitely helped me get out of that hole.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:16

And what did they do? Did they do intravenous or the nasal spray intravenous?

Katrina Smith: 34:20

And to Venus. So yeah, I would, I would lay kind of in a comfy chair in a doctor's office and they would give me an IV, uh, for an hour. And I would, I mean, I always say it was kind of the funnest treatment I ever had because it is a psychedelic. So I would sit there with my iPad and watch nature documentaries and just like, It's kind of nice thoughts, too. It's just like, I kept thinking how death is a part of life, and we're all connected, and, you know, natural, and things like that, um, so, so, you know, it's nice and fun to have those thoughts, um, and somehow, yes, it works its magic on the back end,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:56

It is, it is, um,

Katrina Smith: 34:58

hmm.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:59

we are, I know my psychiatrist said he'd been to a conference and, um, they were really talking about psychedelics, but, you know, psilocybin and it's a work with treatment resistant depression. So I think it's coming, isn't it? It's just changing people's perceptions around, you know, we're not, we don't even have legal cannabis in this country yet, apart from medical use for some people. So it's, I think it's coming and hopefully it'll happen in our lifetime, but um, it does seem frustrating to be when there is so much available that is probably so much safer or, you know, better acting than the

Katrina Smith: 35:33

Mm hmm.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:34

and talk therapies. But, you know, that's a subject for another, for another

Katrina Smith: 35:37

Right. And the nice thing is, you know, with a lot of these psychedelic treatments, you just, you know, need a handful, less, less than a dozen sessions, you know, some of them even just one session, and, and people feel better. So that, yeah, it's, The research on it is amazing. Yep. That could be, there are own podcasts on that. I'm, I'm fascinated by it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:58

yeah, I would like to do it. I would really like to do a full psilocybin immersion retreat and I did actually go out to Amsterdam to do one.

Katrina Smith: 36:06

Oh, wow.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:07

I was pretty deregulated before I even went and I had a bit of a panic attack and it just, Thankfully, I didn't do it because I don't, I think you have to be very much in the right frame of mind. And I think what I'd actually like to do is do it in a much more medical setting. So what I'm kind of waiting for isn't to roll it out as a, as a proper medical treatment. But yeah, I'm definitely, and the same with the EMDR, I went to one session with a woman and it just, I wasn't comfortable. So I stopped, I stopped it. So I'm kind of hoping I can find somebody that I feel comfortable enough to do this with and I, I really admire you because you, you, and this is not me kind of, you know, blowing smoke up your bottom, but it's, it's, I just remember the way you ran full pelt at getting better. Like you just engaged with every therapy, every possible route that there was. to try and get better, you took it. And I, it took me longer to get there. I, I wallowed in, in the bottle for, for quite some time. And I kind of remembered seeing you and just thinking, fucking hell, if she can do it, Rosie, you know, for God's sake, get, get a therapy. And one of the other things that you've done a lot of, um, is travel and I do think that is the, the gift to the, you know, the non parents who are widowed because, um, being that kind of freedom to go and see the world must be quite liberating. But that said, my kids kind of kept me from the brinks, you know, and I, and I kind of, I kind of like them, you know, so, but talk to me a little bit about that because did you at any point feel that you were kind of out running your grief or? Did you feel like, did, was it you that took Josh with you? Took his,

Katrina Smith: 37:46

Yes,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:46

yeah, yeah.

Katrina Smith: 37:47

yeah. So Josh is all over the world. He's in Argentina. He's in Chile. He's in Yosemite National Park. He's in the Grand Canyon. He got thrown off at a waterfall somewhere. So he's all over the place. But for me, and especially in probably maybe The two years after he was killed, it was really important for me to see that there was still beauty in the world. Um, like physical beauty, uh, and just kind people and just realizing that there's places I still want to see and things I still want to do. Um, and that even though I don't have my husband with me, there's still life that I want to live. Um, and I think that was, Yeah, it was very important for me. It was a lifeline for me. And, um, I don't know if it was escaping grief as much as it was. Maybe just working with it and exploring it. Um, cause, yeah, Josh did go with me to a lot of those places. Um, I do remember the first trip I took though. Uh, so Josh's best friend, um, the one I kind of met him through. Uh, yes, Dustin, yeah. Uh, so he lives in Hawaii now, so I took a trip out there two months later. Um, For Josh's birthday, two months after he was killed, and I remember being on that plane and landing in Hawaii, and I just start crying. I'm like, who the fuck lands in Hawaii and just starts crying. Like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:15

that's who.

Katrina Smith: 39:17

right, right. I know. And on the airplane, it's all these couples going on their honeymoons. And yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:23

You've got your, you've got your urn.

Katrina Smith: 39:25

right, exactly. So, yeah, it's just, it was a really important for me to see that. And, um, Prior to that too, my friend, uh, had taken me canyoneering. So we'd rappel down canyons, um, and into like water pools

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:45

horrible.

Katrina Smith: 39:47

Oh, it was so much fun. And yeah, that for me, the fun and the, uh, exhilaration of it. It felt so amazing. But also the fact like I'm being held on by a literal rope. And if I want to, I don't have to, I can cut that rope. And I could have, uh, but I didn't. And I, that was the first moment. And I told my friend this who tipped me is where I thought I'm going to be okay.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:12

because you made that choice. Yeah.

Katrina Smith: 40:14

yeah, realizing I made that choice and just. realizing there's still beauty and things I want to see and things I want to do.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:23

In, I did a, um, a reading at Ben's memorial service and it was kind of in the style of a letter that I wrote to him. one of the things I wrote in there was I promised to, I can't remember the exact words, but I promised to show the children that there is still a beautiful world out there. And so when you said that, that really resonated because. In the moment when you lose the person you love most in the world, you cannot, there isn't any beauty. Everything is, it can, you know, in a film where it goes from color to black and white, it sounds cliche, but that's true, right?

Katrina Smith: 40:52

No.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:52

just looks bleak and you can't envisage any happiness and joy. And I think to go to some of the most beautiful places in the world, to take these kind of calculated risks, um, it does make you feel alive and it makes you feel kind of small in the great. um, scheme of things. Now I just wanted to know as well, were you a bit of an adrenaline junkie before or is that something that was triggered by this?

Katrina Smith: 41:19

adrenaline junkie. I mean, I went skydiving once. Um, we,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:22

I'm gonna say adrenaline junkie then.

Katrina Smith: 41:24

I wouldn't do it again, but yeah, I mean, I, I was fine with some adrenaline. It's not something like I, actively sought out all the time. Um, but it, you know, it can feel nice sometimes, just being in a safe environment where you can feel these kind of scared feelings.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:41

and I'm just, this is just purely out of doziness, but what, what's the best place you've ever been? Like, what's the coolest thing you've seen on your travels? A

Katrina Smith: 41:49

so I, well, gosh, I was just in New Zealand earlier this year and that was gorgeous. Um, but Josh and I went to Iceland for our honeymoon. We spent three weeks driving around Iceland and hiking in the highlands. And that was, Iceland and New Zealand are probably the most beautiful countries I've ever been to. Uh, but I tell everyone my favorite city in the world is Buenos Aires in Argentina. Um, it's just so lively and colorful and it's just beautiful. Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:18

bit like you, lively and colourful and beautiful. If you're only listening because you won't be able to see that cat's got, is it purple or pink hair we've got?

Katrina Smith: 42:25

both purple, pink and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:26

and pink very nice. Oh, I'm blue at the bottom. Lovely. Now, I, if I may, I, I want to ask you a little bit about, um, the fact that you now have another traveling companion, don't

Katrina Smith: 42:39

Yes, I do. Yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:41

come on your adventures with. Now, I've not met this guy, but, um, in my eyes, anybody that kind of takes one of us on and is kind and good to us and understands how complicated we are and loves us, not in spite of it, but kind of in because of it, in a way. And it's Cody, your, your partner is

Katrina Smith: 42:58

it is. Yes. Yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:59

Um, so, So just tell me, if you're comfortable doing so, if he doesn't mind, sorry, Cody, um, just a little bit about how you met because it's, it's very frightening, um, dating again when you're widowed and the level of trauma that you had experienced, I think perhaps would make you a little bit scared about doing anything like that again. Yeah,

Katrina Smith: 43:19

Very scared of, um, dating and one of the things that scared me is, um, I'm very Google able now. Uh, so, you can find out everything that happened, um, by searching my name. You can find out settlement information and details, um, which, you know, you don't want someone you've just talked to to know your financial situation right off the bat.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:45

I never thought of that.

Katrina Smith: 43:47

Um, but you know, it was about three years after Josh had died. Uh, and I was sitting on the couch drinking Rosé and watching The Bachelorette. Um, and my friend and I kind of downloaded a fake Bumble on her phone just to kind of play with it and see what it's like. Uh, so I downloaded it for reals and made a real profile and I was drinking and I just had a great time. Swiping around and, you know, it's fun judging people like that.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:17

Yeah,

Katrina Smith: 44:18

I had never done onlay dating before, and I know everyone who does it regularly now hates it, but your first like two days,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like dipping your toe into this other world, isn't it?

Katrina Smith: 44:29

right, right. So I'm having a grand old time swiping around. Uh, and then I go to bed and the next morning I have like all these matches. I'm like, holy shit.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:38

Show off.

Katrina Smith: 44:42

I, and like, I use Bumble. So you have like 24 hours or something to, to initiate a conversation. Otherwise they go away. Uh, luckily I had therapy that day and I was like, I, I kind of freak out by what I just did, but some of these guys are actually kind of cute and seem kind of cool. Uh, so I did end up messaging just like two or three guys, one of them being Cody, um, and Cody and I hit it off most. So we just kept texting and started talking. Um, And yeah, we had a kind of a first date over zoom because it was in 2020. Um, and hit it off from there. Eventually we did meet for a coffee and dinner and at dinner, uh, I did, you know, tell him I was widowed and the first thing he said, you know, well, are, do you think you're okay to date? Do you think you're ready to date? And I was like, you know, I, I do. Um, And I think it was either that evening or shortly after, uh, Cody texted me wanting to know all of the important Josh dates so that he could either be there for me or to celebrate Josh, whichever was appropriate. And when he said that, I was like, okay, done,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:50

souls. Yeah. I didn't know that. What a lovely thing to do. That is such a, I, such a kind of emotionally intelligent, kind thing to do. I like him.

Katrina Smith: 46:04

So he is the first and only date I went on, and here we are almost four years later, and I just feel incredibly lucky for

Rosie Gill-Moss: 46:13

And it's so weird saying it, isn't it? To say you feel lucky after everything you've been

Katrina Smith: 46:17

I know. I know. I had heard nothing but horror stories, especially from widows dating. Um, and yeah, um, I, I got a good one.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 46:27

You really did. You really did. I'm so pleased for you both. At Josh's funeral, um, one of, was it one of his friends that talked about um, I'm not going to try and do it justice, but something about the particles carrying on existing, it can, is that something that you can condense into sort of, idiot term, so I might understand it.

Katrina Smith: 46:51

Yeah. So it's, it's a common thing you can find online. I think it's called like eulogy from a physicist or something like that. Um, and, um, I thought it was really beautiful. Uh, I think my friend had found it and we had her husband read it because he was an engineer like Josh was, um, and it's, it's just really nice. We, uh, at our wedding, Josh and I had done a reading, uh, by Carl Sagan, uh, the astronomer, just kind of talking about, um, It was a passage from the Pale Blue Dot, just kind of the vastness of the universe and the improbability of two people meeting and kind of coming to this point. Uh, so I thought, you know, that Eulogy would kind of just be very fitting. And what, kind of the gist of what it says is, you know, that energy is neither created nor destroyed. Um, and his particles are still around. Uh, his energy is still around. Um, and, yeah, it's, yeah, you see flicker in the eye, and it's, I don't know, it feels really nice, and being someone who's not religious, uh, you know, I can see how people find comfort in religious texts and passages, but that's not something I feel, so to have that more, I don't know, kind of science, They test that brought out that kind of emotion in me that just brought some comfort and felt nice to hear. Uh, I, I really enjoyed it. I think it's a very

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:14

I'm gonna, I'm going to find it actually and share it because I'm like you, I'm not religious, and I do struggle with the idea of him just stopping, you know, how, how, right? But also I would struggle with the idea that he's always with me, I find that slightly creepy, um, like literally always, because that's weird. Uh, and, So, and I guess I, I've not had any, um, kind of spiritual or um, I don't know what the word is, sort of signs or anything like that, so, and I'm a skeptic until I'm in a more evidence based, I guess. So I like the thought of this, that the energy doesn't go, that, you know, that kind of integral part of them carries on. Because. How can they really be gone? You know, you're right. You do see little glimmers of them everywhere. And, you know, it's not even necessarily just in my children. Being with Ben impacted and shaped who I am. You know, we were together for nearly 14 years. So, of course, He impacted me, which has an impact on other people, and it's like the, I'm waffling, aren't I? But you know what I'm trying to say here.

Katrina Smith: 49:21

I know exactly what you're trying to say. Yes. Yes. And yeah, sometimes I feel like I force myself. I'm like, is this a sign? Is this something from Josh? Cause I want that so bad, but I do feel like I've had some genuine ones and that kind of, it just makes me question what happens. I don't know if it's like a physical presence or if it is just energy floating around and he can bump the energy in a certain direction towards me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:46

Do you think that he'd like Cody?

Katrina Smith: 49:50

I do. I think they are incredibly different people. Um, I'm a very different person now than when I was with Josh. Um, I don't think, They would have a ton in common, but they are both very nice men. They are very open to other people. Um, and yeah, I, I think they would get along and they would be friendly. I don't know if they'd be best friends. So I don't think they have a ton in common. Um, but yeah, I do think he would like him and like the way he's treating me. Right.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:20

But yeah, I feel the same way. Ben and John are incredibly different people. The similarities, they're both from the North, but that's about as far as it goes. And they, but I genuinely, and I don't think I'm saying this just to make myself feel better. I genuinely think that yes, he would much rather be here. Of course he would.

Katrina Smith: 50:36

Right.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:38

If somebody had to be in my life and in my children's lives, then they would. He'd be pretty pleased because like you, you know, you do sometimes think I am quite lucky because some people don't find it once and then to find somebody that loves and cherishes you for who you are twice, like that's pretty special.

Katrina Smith: 50:56

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is. And, you know, I recently had someone, um, asked me if it's someone, someone I don't know closely, but she asked me if I thought Cody was like the one and I was like, well, if you're referring to the one as in like soulmates, I don't know that that's something I believe in. Um, I, you know, do think. There's more than one person for everyone, and it's lucky when you find that person and have that connection with that person. Um, but I, you know, if, if, yeah, just the idea of having one person, and then if that one person dies, that sucks. But yeah, I, I don't know that, Yeah, there's, you know, it's, you, you can find love again, and you can have love in your heart for more than one person, and it's not,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:53

can.

Katrina Smith: 51:54

I'm not erasing the judge for Josh, and I'm not diminishing the love for Cody. It's just,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:01

It just kind of

Katrina Smith: 52:01

can do, yeah, and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:03

And I think you hit the nail on the head when

Katrina Smith: 52:04

coexist.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:05

When you said that you're not the same person and you're not that, you know, that person has essentially died, you know, with, with, with Josh, because how can you possibly be the same person after that? So, yeah, I, and I, I do, I agree with you on the soulmate thing. I think it's a lovely romantic notion that there's one person out there for all of us, but yeah, what happens if they die and what happens if they live in like, I don't know, Australia or something, where you just never meet your person. It all seems, it all seems a little bit lottery based to me, that. Now, Kat, you, in your, the process of going through the kind of legal, um, proceedings that you had to, you basically realized that victims are not protected and supported anywhere near enough, if, particularly with violent crime. So I'm, I did have the name of the church here that you work for and I can't find it now. So you, I tell you what, you tell me, what is the organization that you, you, you support now? Because I know that you were in Washington, weren't you? You went to the White

Katrina Smith: 53:02

Yeah. Yeah. I was just in DC a few weeks ago, um, advocating for, for more rights for crime survivors. Uh, so I'm with a organization called Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice. And, uh, what we do, you know, is. Just kind of want to ensure that survivors of crime have a seat at the table whenever important decisions, um, are being made in, in criminal justice, um, like, you know, you kind of mentioned early victims are often the forgotten ones, uh, in the criminal justice process, all the focus is on the offender. Um, and victims are just kind of the annoying emotional piece that gets in the way of all of that. Um, so it's. You know, up until recently, there, you know, there's, there's, in Arizona, there's a board that makes decision as to where, you know, grants and funding go towards criminal justice agencies, and it was all run by like judges and police officers, um, not a single person, you know, representing the victims on there. Uh, so now they do have a mental health professional on that board and they have a victim's advocate on that board too. Um, But yeah, I just, um, I didn't like the way I was treated as a victim. Um, I had some, uh, very infuriating experiences. And this is, you know, my anger is something that I think drove me joining this organization. Um, Is it was a good outlet for my anger like literally being able to make changes in this field Um, and so we advocate at a state level, uh, but we are starting to get into federal legislation here in the states Um, but just yeah making sure uh victims have access to in the states We have victims compensation where if you're a crime victim, you know, um, you they'll pay for the burial of the person They'll pay for your therapy Uh, but there's you know, silly reasons why they can deny you for that. Um You I know people who had outstanding court fines for minor infractions, and they get denied for that. Uh, I know someone who was originally denied, uh, because the offender was not originally caught, and they were like, well, what if he committed suicide? Um, yeah. So just very silly reasons they can deny you for. So I'm doing a lot of work with victims compensation because I did receive victims compensation. I know how helpful and important that is. Um, and yeah, just this organization in general has been a good, good way to make it feel like I'm doing something with all this bullshit I had to deal with and helping people, you know, maybe make it a little easier, maybe a little better. Uh, we're, we're really focusing on, uh, setting up trauma recovery centers. Um, which is where you can go after a crime and, you know, there'll be a caseworker who can help you figure out therapy, they can help you figure out what's going on with the police, they can help you figure out the court, all the paperwork, there's so much paperwork involved with being a crime victim, Jesus. Um, And it's, there's nothing like that, you know, otherwise it's just you, a list of people you need to call and a list of things you need to look up. So, having all of that access in, in one place would be really beneficial to a lot of trauma survivors. Uh, because we also know a lot of, um, you know, people, a lot of offenders, a lot of violent crime offenders were victims of trauma at some point. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:31

of getting to the source almost and supporting people at the point. Um, I just quickly before I, I don't, um, I realize I'm going kind of back into a different conversation here, but I've just, I keep thinking about the fact that, He, um, will serve 35 years, and that's at the most, isn't it? That's without any parole, um,

Katrina Smith: 56:52

So parole's not an option. Uh, he's serving flat time, so that means no parole. Uh, he does get credit for five years because he was in jail for five years before, uh, they sentenced him. So it's pretty much 30 more years.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:06

and a bit personal, but how old are you now?

Katrina Smith: 57:09

I just turned 38. Mm hmm. Mm

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:15

so you, sorry, my math is terrible, but you could be, um, 70s, early 70s, 38, 60, 68, so 68 when he's released. How does that make you feel?

Katrina Smith: 57:28

Um, pretty pissed off.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:30

Um,

Katrina Smith: 57:31

My lawyer has assured me, like, this guy I think was in his early 40s, uh, he looked much older because the drugs did a number on him, um, so I mean, he, yeah, could be released, uh, if he lives a normal human lifespan, um, the drugs, uh, took a toll on him. Um, I'm hoping prison life isn't good for him, I, I'm not in the space where I have any kind of forgiveness or care for him, um, I hate him and I, I know restorative justice works for a lot of people and I support them if, if they want to, you know, forgive or have a conversation with the offender, uh, but I have absolutely no interest in doing that.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:14

Because when the, the press obviously have had some interest in your case, particularly the, the local press, and I, because I, obviously I did a bit of research before we came on, and his face was just like there, and I've never seen his face, and I, this is the man that took from my very good friend, her most precious thing.

Katrina Smith: 58:35

That's how I first saw his face. Mm

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:37

and that really

Katrina Smith: 58:38

news article. Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:40

And so that I just can't imagine how it must have felt to click on the website and to just see this, the face right there, that must have been absolutely horrifying

Katrina Smith: 58:47

It was incredibly jarring. Uh, and I remember my initial reactions like that man is disgusting. And obviously he did something very disgusting, but I just thought he looked disgusting too. Um, It, yeah, was very jarring for that to just kind of pop up like that. Um, and the, uh, the neighbor who, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:13

sorry, I was gonna say the other thing is the headlines, like I, I won't escape it. They talk about the financial settlement right in the headline, like that's the head story, not the. Not the murder, not the incompetencies, but the, I mean, yes, the incompetence, but I thought that's very typical in a lot of ways of the press to really sensationalize that aspect. And again, it's really not paying attention to the victim and in this and the trauma, you know, printing your name next to a figure of money like that's, that feels really insensitive. Yeah. And also the fact that you are now vulnerable, you know, and it just, yeah, it just. The whole thing just is so horrible. The, you know, the, the entire thing is just absolutely awful. And it's just made so much worse by people being so insensitive and actually incompetent.

Katrina Smith: 1:00:03

Right. Yes. Yeah. Um, so I can't tell you the about of the settlement I got because it's, it's, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:10

I wouldn't ask you darling. I just like, I wouldn't ask your weight.

Katrina Smith: 1:00:14

but it's interesting because

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:15

age though.

Katrina Smith: 1:00:15

record because it was the government paying it. So that news article has a very go look it up online. Um, but yeah, I believe that story you're referring to originally had my photo in it as well. Uh, but calls were made because they like just stole my Facebook picture. So my socials were locked down at that point, uh, and put it up there. So. So, uh, friends made calls and that got taken down, um.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:37

such a, um, you feel so completely violated anyway when somebody dies for you. Of course you do. And then to have. The press take your image and put it out there. Like that's just, it's like having bits of you just stripped away.

Katrina Smith: 1:00:54

I have an even more infuriating story. Uh, I don't know if, yeah, so, um, I had just gotten home from my, my big trip to, uh, Patagonia, to Argentina. And I had just gone through like, you know, 28 hours of flights. I was back home sitting on my parents' couch. Um, it was in the morning drinking coffee. My folks have the news on in the background. And all of a sudden the news starts playing a 911 tape. And at first, you know, I hear it's like, there's an intruder in my house. Oh God, is this happening to someone again? It was my 911 tape.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:01:35

that's

Katrina Smith: 1:01:36

scream at my parents to turn the TV off and I'm just absolutely shaken. Um, that is public record. Uh, I don't know why it was on the news. Nine months later, I may have just been released at that point. Um, but they, they don't need to let me know they're doing that, they don't need my permission to do that. Um, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:00

human decency though, wouldn't you?

Katrina Smith: 1:02:03

right, exactly, exactly. The victim could have been and was accidentally watching that. Um, I had an army of people call and email that news station and I don't believe it was played again. I don't believe it was showed again. Um, so I am very thankful for the people in my corner for multiple reasons, but yeah, that was very upsetting as a victim and something a victim should not have to go through.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:29

Jesus Christ. And

Katrina Smith: 1:02:30

never want to hear that phone call ever. Yeah, I, I still haven't seen any pictures from that night. I don't, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:36

now, why would you want to? I mean, although I did speak to somebody who had, Listen back to the 999 call in this country and, um, because she really felt that it was part of her healing process, but it was very different circumstances. So yeah, like, Oh my God, to just be sitting there having a coffee and to hear your own voice in the most terrifying moment of your life being broadcast as entertainment.

Katrina Smith: 1:03:02

Right. Right. As something that wasn't even like relevant anymore because it was months later. Yeah. Yeah. It was, yeah, very jarring and very upsetting and just makes me angry now thinking about it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:17

Yeah. I was just going to ask you, um, if you feel like the anger towards the law enforcement officers and the failings that happened, do you feel like that has kind of dissipated now you've got some answers? I assume they issued you with an apology because I'm Did they? Did they? No! Because I was going to say that apology would probably, knowing you as I do, be worth more to you than any compensation.

Katrina Smith: 1:03:42

That's what I wanted. Yes. Um, so they don't want to issue an apology because that would be admitting they did something wrong. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:51

obviously doesn't mean that.

Katrina Smith: 1:03:52

right. Yeah, that just makes it go away. Uh, so from my understanding, you know, I had been on the phone with the 911 operator being like, Tell me where the police are, you know, tell the police to come inside. I'm still in here. Tell the police to come inside. Uh, from my understanding, their excuse was that the 911 operator cannot communicate with a police officer if they're outside of their vehicle. Um, I don't know how true that is. They have, uh,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:20

talkies, surely.

Katrina Smith: 1:04:22

over themselves. Um, I think that procedure was going to be reviewed. Um, but I, I don't know that, yeah, any changes have been made in that area or yeah, I did really want an apology and I wanted, um, those specific officers to face, uh, repercussions. Um, But they did not as well. No.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:46

Oh my god. That, it seems, even though I'm listening to you tell this story, that I know it's the absolute truth, it sounds like it can't possibly be. It sounds like the a book, you'd say this is ridiculous. This is so far fetched. Surely there would not that many failings in this case. Um,

Katrina Smith: 1:05:08

So many things went wrong. If just one thing were different, Josh could very well still be alive.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:15

and I think that probably is something that must torture you that kind of the what ifs. Um, and I think it's not, it's, if he really grasp onto that possibility, you know, what if, what if could, could they, could they, and that must have been something that you've had to work really, really hard to, to, to to silence.

Katrina Smith: 1:05:36

Yes. Yeah. Um, that is something I worked with my therapist on a lot. It's a path I try not to go down because it could be a never ending path and very upsetting path. And I'm sure you know this as well. Uh, you know, what if, Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:50

What if we didn't scuba dive on honeymoon? Yes, yes.

Katrina Smith: 1:05:53

right, exactly. What if, you know, I had gone out there immediately once I heard it was quiet and I had heard him leave my house and I could have put pressure on the wound or got medical help and we lived less than a mile from to level one. Emergency rooms like we could have gotten him to the hospital quick. Um, yeah, what if what if so many things what if I had screamed out and he just wanted to rape me and not kill Josh like this so many What if, and it is, what if he was stabbed this much in a different direction? Um, so many possibilities. What if he, this man was supposed to be, you know, being, checking in for his mental health treatment. What if he did that? He had interactions with the police officers like that week prior. What if, so many what ifs.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:47

you could, you could torture yourself until the end of time, couldn't you? And I think that, that really affects this, this process that we're trying to get to. We all believe that acceptances are kind of the holy grail. It's not really. You have to go through a lot of other shit after that, but it's that to accept that they've gone and it's completely unfair, completely unjust. And, There's nothing that you can do to bring them back. There's nothing. And I think getting to that point is, is so tough. And it's, and the fact that you've had to go through so long, four years of, of legal work, and I can't even begin to imagine the paperwork. I, it, it, it just, it's just knock on top of knot. And the fact that you are not only still standing, the fact that you are still so full of people. Joy and love and hope is just a complete testament to who you are. And I suspect probably who Josh was as well, because as I said before, they shape who we are. And, and, you know, I think, I think you are absolutely amazing. And I think that your story is so powerful and so, moving and so horrifying, I'm afraid. But I think it's really important that people were here because I, I don't know anybody that's experienced what you have, but there must be other people out there. There must be, of course there are. And to

Katrina Smith: 1:08:09

And that's, yeah, that's part of the reason I wanted to do this. I know

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:14

um,

Katrina Smith: 1:08:14

I've been meaning to get together with you for a while. Um, but yeah, I mean,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:18

fly to New York to see you. So, you know,

Katrina Smith: 1:08:21

that's fine with me. Um, but I remember, um, kind of early on, and I'm pretty sure, you know, it was, it It. Billy, one of one of our widow friends, uh, I'm pretty sure he had sent me a podcast, uh, where this South African author, um, had been through a home invasion, uh, where her husband was killed. And that podcast she talks about, I think she had kids in another room. Um, but because she was just like frozen and terrified with fear, she could not go into that other room, like while, while the home invasion was occurring. Um, and just hearing that. me feel a lot better. Um, a lot of the times one of my big what ifs is like, why didn't I just go out from under the bed? Why didn't I want to go help my husband? Um, and you know, my therapist reminds me that it's not just fight or fight. It's Fight, fight, or freeze, and freezing is a completely normal and appropriate reaction, especially if you're not, you know, military trained or trained to go into those type of situation. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:28

And also you were being told to do that as well, the operator, that's what they were telling you to do. And in that moment, I can only imagine that you need somebody to tell you what to do.

Katrina Smith: 1:09:38

right, yes, yes, yeah, um. But yeah, sometimes just hearing someone with a relatable story helps, because what, home invasions aren't common, murder's not common, um, for the longest time, you know, first of all, being a widow at 30 years old, I felt very alienated by that, but then, he wasn't in a car accident, he didn't have cancer, any of these quote unquote normal deaths for someone who was 35 years old, like Josh, um, So it's a very abnormal death and just finding anyone who could relate to that was very helpful for me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:18

And also things like when you tell people, because it is, you say to somebody, Oh, I'm, I'm a widow. Okay. And you. People are quite shocked and then presumably they would say, Oh, that's terrible. How did he die? And then you say he was murdered in my home. And so, and that, I mean, that's a conversation killer, isn't it? Or

Katrina Smith: 1:10:35

Boy,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:36

the starter, go either way. And do you sort of, do you, do you find yourself kind of, um, softening the blow a little bit and, you know, Or do you just give the people the, you know, the bear, like, this is what happened. I suppose sometimes I would say, um, you know, I'd give people, I might just avoid the issue, you know, I might just not mention it at all unless I absolutely have to. And other times I just let them have the full bells and whistles. Um, do you find yourself cushioning it at all, or did you in the early days? Yeah,

Katrina Smith: 1:11:07

I do. Um, and I know that's something I don't have to do is worry about other people's comfort because they're the ones who feel uncomfortable when I tell them that. But something I am very attention intentional with and kind of bringing us to the very beginning of this conversation is I tell people my husband was killed. Um, he didn't do anything.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:11:26

I noticed that you use that word that all the way through I noticed that, that you say when Josh was killed, um, as opposed, and I think a couple of times when he died, but mostly you said that he was killed and I, I really, I noticed that and I thought that must be a deliberate choice that you've made.

Katrina Smith: 1:11:42

Right.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:11:42

not that he was killed, but obviously

Katrina Smith: 1:11:44

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and yeah, yeah. Similar to you. Um, sometimes I'll just be like, I'd rather not get into it right now. Um, or I just say, yeah, he was murdered during a home invasion. And then it's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And then the conversations.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:12:03

Now you'll be able to say, um, if you wanna just listen to episode, whatever you're going to be of widow af. You can hear all the, all the details there. There you go. That's, I, I actually did, I said you could just listen to episode three. I'm, it's all there. It's all there for you.

Katrina Smith: 1:12:16

I will. Yes, I'll print out little business cards or something with the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:12:19

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I've got a QR code on my, you could have a QR code linked to it. Yeah. Oh, Katrina, I, it's been incredible talking to you this evening. Um, I've learned things about you that I didn't know. I've learned things about Josh that I didn't know. And I've learned things about Cody that I didn't know. So I felt like I've got a full, good rounded picture. Um, and I. I can't thank you enough for coming to share with me. I feel very, um, I feel quite humbled by it actually, because I know that this is not something that you do talk about at length in great detail publicly. And, um, and I feel incredibly honored that you, you chose to come on here. And, um, I hope, I hope that you feel that it's been quite cathartic in a way. Um, And I, yeah, I, I hope you feel rightly proud of yourself for doing this. And, um, yeah, this is gonna, this is gonna become part of something bigger than us, you know. This, this, this, this collection of stories that we're, we're creating together. And I hope that, um, it does help to inform. So we, we, we going to speak at an end of life conference actually next month because it's starting to seep into sort of education settings as well because it just doesn't seem to be anything quite so in depth and this is not me singing my own praises this is this is what you guys do by coming and telling your stories and I think it's a we talk a lot about legacy and I think it's a really valuable way to leave a tribute to them because their stories are kind of immortalized now um unless you hate it and make me take it down but that won't happen

Katrina Smith: 1:13:47

No. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for having me on and for just doing all of this. Like I've thought about sometimes if there was a podcast like yours, like when we first became widowed, like how I would have been

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:01

We would have listened to it all the time, wouldn't we?

Katrina Smith: 1:14:04

Right. Right.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:06

she was widowed nine months ago, and so she was really early on, and I don't tend to talk to people that early on, but, um, she was, she was in a good place, but she, she said to me, I've, I've, I listened to you to go to sleep, and I thought, I think that's a compliment, but I just thought that's what I would do. I'd listen to podcasts and things to help me switch off, and, and finding those, that kind of friend in the darkness, that kind of, that camaraderie. And I think for us, it was that real dark humor as well. The fact that, you know, all the way through this episode, we've just been laughing. We've been talking about your husband being murdered. And then in the next conversation, we'd laugh because being a widow doesn't strip you of who you are completely. You still need to find things funny. And my God, if we don't laugh about it, then it's like, you know, we'll just cry all the time. And nobody wants that, do they?

Katrina Smith: 1:14:50

Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And it's just so helpful and important to find people that are relatable or a story that's relatable. It makes, I just felt so alone. Uh, and Rosie, one of the things that like, I think connected me to you and drew me to you was that like, You and Ben are this beautiful, gorgeous couple in this, like, pinnacle of health, and everything's fine, and then he's dead. Um, like, there, you know, there was no illness where he, you know, slowly became a shell of himself. He, he was You know, normal everyday Ben, I assume. Um, and then he was just dead

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:26

Normal might've been pushing it, but.

Katrina Smith: 1:15:31

and then, yeah, I mean, I had this husband who was completely fine and doing good. And then he was like, Just that these, I don't know if you call them freak accidents or, or what, but, uh, they just,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:44

It's the lightning bolt, isn't it? From nowhere, it's that horrible lightning bolt and then that kind of chasm between before and after. And I think unless you have lost somebody in a sudden way, it's something that's really difficult to understand. Uh, But it's been, it's been really lovely to see your face. And as, as always to, to just, I, I just think, I think you're the bee's knees. I really do. And, um, I am going to come to America fairly soon, but not to your neck of the woods, but I'm, I'm going to try and get over there next year if I can. Um,

Katrina Smith: 1:16:16

I want to get over towards you

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:18

yes,

Katrina Smith: 1:16:19

Cody lived in England for a few months and has been dying to go back.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:22

long as he doesn't make me cook vegan food for him, then he can

Katrina Smith: 1:16:25

um, bummer.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:26

it's my friend who's vegan and she just got pasta and tomato sauce. I was like, There you go. Vegan food.

Katrina Smith: 1:16:33

Hey, that works. Give me a bowl of cereal.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:34

That's what my kids live on anyway.

Katrina Smith: 1:16:36

Yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:37

now, my darling, I'm going to say bye and thank you once again for coming on and for speaking so eloquently about, firstly, the enormous love that you and Josh shared and also, of course, the horrific way in which he died. For anybody out there that has been affected by this episode, I know I have, you can reach out to me and you can probably message me. Um, to speak to Katrina and I can pass messages on, um, but for everybody else out there, whoever you are, wherever you may be, I wish you much love and I will be back with you soon. Take care.