Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:02

Hello, and a very warm welcome back to Widowed AF. You're here with me. I'm your host, Rosie Gilmoss, and joining me today from across the channel, I've got Cassie McCleary, all the way from, well, all the way, it's not that far, is it? I'm only in Kent, but from Paris. Welcome, Cassie.

Kassie McCleeary: 0:18

Thank you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:19

How are you today?

Kassie McCleeary: 0:20

Doing all right. Um, yeah, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:24

so I'm So, for our listeners, um, Cassie and I have just had a little chat before the microphones went on, and, um, Cassie, I think you might be my most recent widow to date, because your John died in January this year, so you are pretty fresh.

Kassie McCleeary: 0:40

very much so. But, uh, it was a, I guess, long journey to get there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:45

Yeah, and it was, it was a cancer death as well, and, and one of the things I noticed in your application form was, um, that he died from lung cancer at 35, and he wasn't a smoker, because that must be the first question everybody asks you.

Kassie McCleeary: 0:57

yeah, yeah. So he was 35, 34 and he was diagnosed and then died at 37. Um, no, Not, he always did lots of sports, we'd actually leave parties if people were smoking because he'd get so annoyed with the air and whatnot and so we still just kind of, um, sort of random freak, uh, coincidence that lung cancer happened

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:20

I mean if you're going to win a lottery, that's not the one you want to win, is it?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:23

no, no, that's not why we want to be well known, you know, because the whole French medical system was aware of the case because it was such an oddity to have someone in that age range without any smoking. Yeah, so the whole, it was, yeah, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:39

So you've got, you've had quite a, um, I suppose like a quite a romantic start. You're, you're American and you guys met in France and you now live in France. So I think what would be really interesting for me and for our listeners would be to kind of get to take you back and tell me a little bit about the kind of romance and the love because we, you're here to talk about him dying. Of course you are, but I, I feel with so many of my guests, in fact all of my guests, there's so much more to their story than the death. So I guess when you're ready in your own time, I'll kind of prompt you if you need, but just go back and tell me a little bit about how you guys met and what your lives looked like prior to the diagnosis.

Kassie McCleeary: 2:16

Yeah. Um, so we met in 2010. I had come to Nantes, France, which was part of an exchange program with my school in the United States. Um, I was studying French. So I was excited to go learn the language, visit the culture. It was my first time in Europe. Um, and I didn't really have the goal of meeting a French boyfriend, but You know, my first week at school, there was this French guy who came in to tell us he played American football and we wanted to watch football games together, which was the last thing any French student really wants because they're all quite into culture and art or like to think they are in the U. S. And it's like 60 girls for five guys. John knew this, so he was more, I think, shopping around to see who would want to go out. Um, so he exchanged phone numbers with one of the guy friends of mine who actually did like American football, um, and called him our first weekend out and said, hey, let's hang out, and my friend thought it was a bit weird that this French guy was calling us. I was like, whatever, he's We know him through our study abroad program. We have his phone number, his address. If he's weird, we'll just walk home. We live next to each other, so it's just whatever. And well, I guess he wasn't that weird because we started hanging out through my whole study abroad, and which was a really great model because he had a whole team of American football players who were French. I had a whole bunch of women who knew girls who were ready to meet French men. And kind of everyone was there for four months, so no one really wanted anything serious. So we just had a ton of sort of fun running around Paris or running around. We went to Paris to, um, just sort of,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:57

Now forgive my ignorance, and I could Google this, but seeing as I've got you here, where is Nantes in France?

Kassie McCleeary: 4:03

So it's the West, um, it's about a two hour train ride from Paris, but it's towards the West. Um, I call it the armpit because it's the Brittany post out and it's just underneath there. Uh, so it's in the Northern part closer to the coast.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:18

should know, I should know. Ben's business is based in France. We spent a lot of time in France, but it was very much sort of, um, Brittany Normandy border, that sort of area.

Kassie McCleeary: 4:25

So we're going to be the southern part of Brittany, close to the southern

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:28

Anyway, I digress with my geography lesson here. I just, um, I thought if I don't know other people won't know as well. So,

Kassie McCleeary: 4:35

So we were just hung out and I did an internship over the summer. And so we were, I guess, together for eight months. And then I had to go back home to finish school. And so I did. So we did long distance, um, for about a year. And then I was always wanted to, I did international relations, always wanted to go live abroad. Uh, so I came back to Milan as a teaching assistant, um, in 2011. And we just hung out. Had, you know, I was teaching, he was working, had a fun time there, just sort of being a young couple. And then we moved to Canada for his job where in Montreal, where I did a grad school program, we had a whole nother sort of phase of our life that happened there and a whole group of friends. Um, and both of us sort of moved forward professionally or academically. Um, In a really great way. And that's where we got married, um, in Quebec city because the consulate was too packed in Montreal. Cause there's so many French people there. Um, and that was, we left in 2016 and then we came back to Paris and we're living in Paris, we've been living in Paris since then, um, came back originally for, for his job again. But then we just sort of got into a nice, um, I mean, some people, Paris is a great city. And I think a lot of people, there's a reason people love to visit. Uh, so it's sort of a weird, in a great neighborhood where there's lots of a market, right? Close by lots of restaurants, lots of bars. And John was very gifted at becoming friends with all the barmen and the restaurant owners and is really into wine. So we'd go in and he'd have a quick conversation. Then I was just sort of the American wife sidekick who people would remember It was a little bit out of the normal, um, so really just had a great number of years that were kind of being a young couple, meeting friends. Paris has a lot of international people, so there's lots of other sort of dual nationality couples hanging out. Um, pretty, I mean, there's a lot of, I guess, steps to our, our relationship, but that was, um, sort of a young, carefree one. Especially looking back now,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:51

days.

Kassie McCleeary: 6:52

yes, and it was fun and, you know, I was getting some of my first jobs out of grad school and trying to sort of conquer the whole French, like, job market, which isn't easy as a foreigner because they really like people to fit into boxes. And I don't, uh, so, um. Challenging, but also quite rewarding. And then we get into, I guess, 29, 2020. Um, well, the world stopped for a lot of people, but I guess for us, it was sort of a similar, uh, challenging phase.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 7:25

as soon as you say 2020, is that your

Kassie McCleeary: 7:28

sorry. That's, I don't know why.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 7:30

Sorry, as long as, because it could be something in my, in the studio. That's, um, I'd much prefer it to be something your end.

Kassie McCleeary: 7:35

It was a toy timer that my daughter said this morning.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 7:39

I'd set my alarm to come on like today and then left my phone in the garden. So it just been binging for five minutes. Anyway, well, as soon as you said, Sage, as soon as you said 2020, I, my heart kind of drops because I speak to a lot of people in this job. And for lots of people who's. Partners were diagnosed or became ill in 2020. The process was very delayed and it means that outcomes perhaps wouldn't have necessarily been so tragic. Now, I don't know whether that is something that affects you, but, um, I guess tell me a little bit about what that was like, because being locked down in Paris, suddenly this kind of cosmopolitan city must have felt far less free.

Kassie McCleeary: 8:23

A bit of a trooper and was kind of like everyone just like pay attention Do what we're told and this will be done quick. Of

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:29

Head down, get on with it kind of thing. Yeah.

Kassie McCleeary: 8:31

it's and like it's not a group like no one likes this, but you know, we gotta we gotta do

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:37

when John started to develop some symptoms? Is that when

Kassie McCleeary: 8:40

it would have been later. So 2020 was kind of, uh, I guess crappy for a lot of other reasons. The cancer was 2021. Um, so 2020. I mean, I don't know. I was still refreshed to be in a city that was like from my window. Uh, I could see people, even if they were masked, I could still see people going about their daily lives, which I'm more of an extrovert. So when I'm isolated or like in the countryside for like a week, it's lovely, but then longer, I'm like, what's going on? Like, I don't have any reference. So I think I was actually quite, um, it was okay. And then we had neighbors move in like a month before COVID. That was another French American couple that was our age. We didn't see anyone else besides them, but we actually had, we'd have like, we'd archive in the basement, we'd go get wine, we had these great dinners together, cause, so we kind of just like potted together with them and got to know them really well. Um, so that, the first part was actually like, it was unusual and abstract and kind of crazy, but, um, I mean, looking back right now, like, I would rather relive that. A thousand times compared to what what came afterwards. Um, yeah, who wants to read it again? I was in a situation where I had a job that was I could do remotely and easily so it was didn't have any stress Financially there and people were following rules and the government was taking things seriously I'm kind of saying this in reference to a family in the united states where it was a rodeo and like people were genuinely scared because rules weren't being followed or you know So it was quite, I guess, a comfortable place to be in during COVID, but then my mom got diagnosed with cancer in the fall. There was a lot of family drama with my husband's family and his parents divorcing. Um, and then just still happening. So it's, it's a bit of a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:30

And actually, you mentioned to me, um, before we sort of officially came on microphone, that your husband's brother died very suddenly that Christmas. Um, and I sort of said, you don't say any more because I want to ask you this on mic, so pretend you've told me nothing and just tell me a little bit about that if you mean, you've told me nothing, I know nothing.

Kassie McCleeary: 10:46

we've had this year that's already been rather exceptional. My Mom is diagnosed and I'm far away and I can't see her which is really hard

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:53

How is your mum now?

Kassie McCleeary: 10:55

She's great that was like you caught it super early super super early She was just um she's always been someone who's very like Get all your checkups cuz my grandpa died from a cancer that could have been prevented had he just reacted to what he was feeling So that went really well and then As she, after she had her surgery for cancer, like, I had found out I was pregnant, so it was okay, it's been a bit of a struggle, but on the way up, um, you know, things, positive things to come, and then my brother in law on Christmas Eve passed away from, we still don't know, um, just his heart just stopped, um. So we were, a call from his girlfriend that he hadn't arrived on the 24th because he was going to go, we were in Nantes, and he was going to go spend Christmas Eve with her family, and it was unusual that he would just not show up and wasn't responding to his phone. Um, so, I was home prepping food and whatnot, and my, my husband and his mom went, To his apartment. Um, fortunately they didn't have keys so they couldn't go in, but I ended up calling the fire department cause we thought it was weird that we could hear his phone ringing from the outside. The lights were on like, okay, this is unusual. And, um, I mean, the firemen are. They know what they're doing, so they make sure you stay outside, but he had just died. So we still don't know, it was, it was awful. Um, and we had Christmas presents for him, like, and I just found, and we were at like three months, and we'd just gotten sort of the go that everything was okay, and we could start sharing, and be happy about it, and excited, and um, Like, we didn't even get to that because we were telling people about, um, Alexi, so it was, um, quite the rollercoaster of a, of a year, and it was, and it was just such a shock, and now that we've had my husband's death, which was a much longer, um, so unfortunately, we now have lived by it. Both the shocking surprise and the, uh, kind of one where, you know, what's going to happen.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:01

amount to happen in one family and, and like you say, you're, you know, COVID has been quite comfortable for you guys, you know, and actually,

Kassie McCleeary: 13:09

that was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:09

just, And then to kind of get through relatively unscathed because, you know, anybody that got through 2020 unscathed you feel like you've kind of come through a, like a real war zone almost and to have this happen right at the end and, you know, talk about inconvenient as well Christmas Eve, like that's going to ruin all your Christmases.

Kassie McCleeary: 13:27

Well, uh, we've, we've, we've been okay with kind of, but it's, it's still, it's there. And then his brother's birthday was November 1st. So it's all saints day. So it's these like really important dates that you can't go past. Um, I think the first year is just hard because we had gifts wrapped for him. So like, what do you do with them? And during COVID you weren't allowed to have, like, it's a young person who You can't have more than 30 people in the funeral space. Severin had big masks and, like, had to distance and, like, it was such a shock that people were still, like, it was, I mean, that was, I think, similar to a lot of people who lived through other COVID deaths. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:06

it just felt, it felt incredibly cruel and scary. And, um, I think we were all almost preparing that we might lose people to COVID, but when anything happened that was seemingly unrelated, it felt like even more of a big shock because,

Kassie McCleeary: 14:22

yeah, well, and he was, he was 30, like, so it was, was he 31? No, No, it would have

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:31

I won't. I won't

Kassie McCleeary: 14:31

yeah, whatever around there. Um, he's born 1990, but um, that's so it was like just, and again, we still don't know they're doing some, they're studying, like doing some pretty intensive DNA testing for both my husband and him because it was such an And I remember thinking when he passed, I was like, well, that's awful, but like, there's no way that two brothers in the same family have some crazy early death. And like, never say that. And this was the same time also my mom had her last radiation treatment for cancer, like, the week later, so I was, like, excited. She was okay, but then we were feeling this, and then it was probably a couple weeks later when my husband started to have these. I don't We can't prove it, ever, if there was something that sort of the trauma of losing his brother triggered, um, something, um, and him and his brother got very close in the last, like, several years before they passed, before he passed away, and when they were kids, like, his brother was super artsy and kind of intellectual, my husband was more the sporty, outgoing, whatever, so they kind of, like, Weren't like very super close as kids, but then they became close working on a family business. That was not good for the rest of everything else. So the relationship with my, my, my husband, his dad was not great, but it was, it brought the brothers together and they were had just an immense respect for each other as adults, which was great to see and amazing to see. So I think it was even harder for him after sort of gaining this adult relationship with his brother. Um, yeah. But it was a couple weeks later where he started having this kind of pain that we thought might be kidney stones in his, like, abdomen. Uh, we got it checked out, nothing was happening. Um, then he had, like, this back pain that we couldn't figure out, and he was going to, like, an osteopath, and then he went to a podiatrist to get things in his heels, because he'd broken a leg when he was younger, so one was longer. So we're like, well, maybe it's just your back is adjusting, and he was in just a ton of pain, and we We're trying and couldn't get it figured out. Um, and then he lost his voice. So he was like, but he didn't have an, like, he wasn't sick. Nothing was swollen. It was just like this weird talking really quietly like this, like, like, okay, well, maybe he's just tired, uh, like emotionally, physically from, you know, this sort of. Junk with his, like. Dad and trying to get out of this like business that they started and his brother passing away and just, you know, maybe this is linked to

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:11

was thinking an awful lot of this can be written off to stress, to grief. Um, and actually when you are looking at a young person, your first thought is not, Oh, you've got cancer. It, it, it is

Kassie McCleeary: 17:23

mean, now it is for me, I'm like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:24

Of course,

Kassie McCleeary: 17:25

it checked out, get a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:26

your toe

Kassie McCleeary: 17:27

get all the tests. Um, but for us, it was, I was like, okay, back issues. Like you were, you were an athlete, you haven't taken care of yourself. Like you haven't been doing. maintenance fitness for a long time. You'll go play flag football or a game of soccer and you're not training. So you might, you know, hurt yourself or something. But yeah, I didn't in my wildest dreams think that it would have been lung cancer and really nothing he had was linked. None of the symptoms that we had seen. We're linked to his, we're linked

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:57

So they weren't sort of traditional lung cancer symptoms.

Kassie McCleeary: 18:00

Well, and they're all symptoms of it being in other organs, which is a bad sign. Uh, in general, lung cancer, but specifically lung cancer once it leaves one of the lungs. Like it's, it's, um, you know, it's going to be a long term thing. It's not ever going to be really fully healed, so we were having these kind of weird things, and this is all through me being more and more

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:23

I was going to say you're pregnant as well. So at what point does this start to look serious? Because initially, um, you're going to be ruling out, you know, viral infections. COVID's probably even on your radar, you know, is it a weird type of COVID? Um, and so what point, I mean, we're dealing with a man here as well. So at what point did he seek sort of medical attention? And at what point did they, were they, did they say this is quite serious?

Kassie McCleeary: 18:49

uh, so we, we have a really good friend who's a doctor who's known one of our just good longtime friends, um, and she was sending in for like tests and scans, and she was kind of like, look, like you need to just go, it's probably, it was in May, um, that, um, Like, we'd seen the doctor for the back, we'd seen the doctor for the different isolated things, um, and it was all, like, it would have been, yeah, because in May, I remember it was six weeks before your due date you have as your maternity leave starts, and I had my COVID vaccine was kicked in, and the terraces in Paris all opened up, so I was like, I'm free. No work. I just get to sit with this baby. And then, you know, my husband needs to rest up a little bit because I'm gonna, he's, he's not in great shape right now. Um, so I remember I went to go visit a friend, uh, along the beach and kind of just with her and then met up with my husband and our, our friends and like, look, I, I'm out of solutions. I can't figure this out. Like you need to just go to the hospital, go to the emergency room because. I'm, uh, I've done my whole checklist of everything and you've seen other doctors and we need someone to look at this globally. And if you go in and then it was probably a week. Yeah, that was like the end of May. So it's probably a week later where my husband's, so he'd also had these like weird kind of, he'd went to the eye doctor cause he had these kind of weird, like lights, like flashing his head and the eyes, like the eyes were fine. Um, but then, yeah, it would have been like the end of May. Was having like his leg was bothering him, but then he was like losing movement in his left leg. So it was becoming like, and it was practically paralyzed in his back. Like he had no more, like he couldn't move it. He was just dragging it along. And the next day I was like, I had a doctor's appointment and was leaving. He's like, okay, I'm at the doctor's. I'm going to check this out. And it was, I think, June 2nd or June 3rd. Um, and they had him stay overnight and they did the scans. and of his back. And they're like, okay, there's a whole bunch of forms. They didn't get to say it was tumors, but like there's things in his lower back. And so they went further up and they're like, and his lungs and his head. So he had tumors in his brain and his kidneys and his lungs. So, um, they said it might be

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:13

guy walking, like, I mean,

Kassie McCleeary: 21:14

don't, we don't, like there's lots of things that were like, even at the end, the doctors, like we don't really know how he had so many tumors at the end that we don't really know how he was walking. Um, but he walked himself to the emergency room, which is, uh, Paris, there's lots of hospitals. Um, think once he got in, And I'm, at this point in June, like I am, my due date's June 30th, and this is like the beginning of the last month of pregnancy and he gets checked into the hospital, um, so it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:47

have been terrified, you must have been absolutely terrified, I'm so sorry that you had to go through that, it's made me feel quite emotional, because I know how vulnerable we are when we're pregnant, and how much you need to be looked after, and for you to have to face this, um, This piece of news whilst, you know, thinking, and I bet you're doing the whole, I must stay calm for the baby, I must not transmit my stress for the baby.

Kassie McCleeary: 22:10

well, and I was like, okay, and like, we just kept saying like, don't, don't stay, don't come out, don't come out, stay, stay inside, like, daddy's at the hospital, um, and then everyone, I had like a, uh, an amazing, just, community and team of people who came in who were just ready to like my friend Kimmy, who's actually maybe still in the apartment. She's visiting this weekend. Um, who came in while they waited for my mom to come. I had some other friends who lived a block away, um, who like, and then the neighbors who we knew really well at that point, uh, who were just all like stepping in, like, what do we do? Don't lift anything. We're going, like, it was, um, people really rallied and very quickly, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:49

the best and worst in people in these situations and it sounds like you have some good people around you, which is a small consolation, but, um, in this moment you needed it, right?

Kassie McCleeary: 22:59

very, I mean, it was kind of a, just a unique, almost just like, I don't know, I feel like a mini series could be written just about that, like, month of myself in Paris while, like, and things were opening up after COVID. So people were refining other people. Um, but he was at the hospital and it was, I think, He was so tired and had so many things going wrong, but I think was holding it together because he had to and then being in the hospital and finding out that there really is something wrong. I think like you could tell it just like it was almost like he like, not let go, but it was like, okay, I'm allowed to be tired. And I, you know, so we had. But like something is really up and I was kind of convinced that he had like a a pinched nerve or a disc that was messed up and that's why his back was hurting and that was the paralysis. So I was like, okay, we're going to do back surgery and then I'm going to have a baby and we're all going to be okay.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:47

all going to be fine.

Kassie McCleeary: 23:49

And that was it. Uh, but no, so it was took like probably a good, like, I don't know, over two weeks. To have all the tests back, it was probably a week and a half or so before, maybe even a bit longer before they could say that it was what type of lung cancer it was. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:04

And excruciating that way. Was he in hospital during this

Kassie McCleeary: 24:07

yeah, so he was like three weeks in the hospital, partly because there was just so much pain meds and then they were just testing and trying and eliminating everything. Um, so he was at one hospital and then was switched to one that had specialized in, uh, lung cancer and lungs. Um, I guess also the advantage of being in a different hospital. Paris is, there's a ton of hospitals and most of the specialists, there's a lot of research specialists who are all here. Um, so, you know, you're getting great care and even like the team of people who got together to look at his file was, uh, I mean, I don't know, specialists in different domains. So that was something I was always comfort comforted with, I guess, also growing up in the U S and people were like, get a second opinion. There is no second opinion here. We have the best in the country. If we go private, we might have a nicer room with like

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:02

that's about it, right?

Kassie McCleeary: 25:03

curtains or something, but like the actual care is, it's not going to get better than what we've got here. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:10

Just, I mean, I've just written down, I make a lot of notes while people are talking and I'm just wondering, how did John take the news? Because this must have been, even though he's the one that has been feeling unwell and probably hiding a lot of how rubbish he felt perhaps.

Kassie McCleeary: 25:24

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:26

But it still must have been a massive, massive shock for him. And I'm just, I'm trying not to sort of, try not to poke you too much because I don't want to make you sad. But I guess I'm thinking of this guy who's got this beautiful wife, who's pregnant with their first baby and then to be told that you are probably not going to be able to see it, to see this life unfold. Is this something that he's aware of yet?

Kassie McCleeary: 25:49

No. Uh, at that point, they don't tell you, they tell you, um, that, you know, this is serious. And once you have lung cancer, that especially has, they don't say it like, like, they were very, very, very cautious to not give any, you know, Time limits to and he would ask like he was a very stubborn and insistent. What about this? What about that? They're like look, this is spread to a lot of places, but it's quite an anomaly. You're very healthy Otherwise, I mean noted when you saw like the description of like his lifestyle like okay You're drinking a little bit more than maybe you should but like

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:26

Who isn't at 30 in Paris, right?

Kassie McCleeary: 26:29

right, right, so it's um You know, but besides that, like you have good lungs. Most people who get diagnosed like this have crappy lungs and there's 70. Like, so you might take better to treatment. So they didn't want to give any sort of like life sentence or anything like that. But they did say like, look, once you have metastasized lung cancer, um, you might be in remission for a few years, but it's, it's going to keep coming back. Like it doesn't ever just completely go away once it's spread. So you're already preparing yourself at that point for. A life that's going to be different. Um, but the first medicine he was on was, um, it was a pill with very few side effects and it worked really, really well for the first like five months. Uh, so it was kind of like, okay, well maybe like if this works, like you could, you know, it might be more like some other long term illnesses like multiple sclerosis or things like that. But like, okay, maybe this could be, I mean, automatically I'm like, we're not going to be 80 and old together. Like this isn't. Unless some create and then they're like, well, you never know. Cancer research is moving so fast. So maybe you had this treatment for 15 years and we find out another possibility. Um, so it was kind of a little bit. More like that. Maybe that's what we wanted to

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:53

There's still some hope here, isn't there? This is, I can, when I talk to the guests, and primarily you see this in a terminal illness, because with a sudden death, as you know yourself, there's no, the hope is extinguished quite quickly. But when somebody's, You've got this terminal illness, or this life altering illness as it is for you guys at the moment. You, you are grabbing at straws, aren't you? You're thinking that, like you say, the cancer treatment could come a long way if we can keep him going for 15 years. And I'm guessing that during this period of, um, you say five months on the meds, that your baby was born. So, no, that's,

Kassie McCleeary: 28:29

I mean, he just started, he came home from the hospital. And, um, so I had a friend staying with me until my mom could get there because she had her last follow up meeting after her cancer before she could come visit. And because of COVID, no one could come. Normally, no one is going to see me like pregnant. For my family. So I have a twin sister as well. And so everyone was just following from abroad and excited to come in the summer after the baby was born. Once some COVID restrictions were more laid back. So it was, um, I mean, pretty particular, um, but my mom was like, okay, well, as soon as I called her and like called my family and said what was going on, she's like, okay, I'm getting there as quickly as possible. Like the 21st is my appointment with my, I was like, well, don't miss, don't miss Like, I don't want you to mess up your care because it's going well, like get here. And then my friend, Kim, he was here and I had my other really good friend, Kate, who had just given birth. So we were pregnant together here in Paris and both of us are Americans. And so we, I had, I'm like, I had people here. Um, like they all did the last like preparation courses with my midwives in case they needed to be there in the birthing room with me. And then the hospital was really flexible and said that they would drive my husband over in the ambulance if I went into labor and they needed to get him there. Um, yeah, so it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:46

made me go all

Kassie McCleeary: 29:47

I know, so it was like the care that we received, uh, the whole time through was just amazing. Uh, incredible. And the maternity that I was at, so he's, he'd gotten home. So he came home about a week before I gave birth and he was not in great shape, uh, really tired. And I was like, kind of even scared because he had, because of the brain tumors has had these like mini seizures. So I was almost like stressed out that I'm like, I don't know, like, I can't help you if you have a seizure. Like, I don't know. So we had this medicine that he would take and it would just be completely like in the clouds, but, um, at least he was home. And so I think that like our daughter was. Born three or four days late and I think it was like, I was just like, nope, stay, stay there. Like, don't, don't come out until like, we kind of have a semblance of what's going on. Um, so my mom had gotten there and the hospital, it was COVID, you're only allowed to have one person, but they made exceptions that my mom and my husband could both be there because he was, I mean, clearly the person giving birth is the one who's the most tired, but anyone who's accompanying that, like it's a tiring experience as well. Um, so my mom could be there to sort of pull in the, Be there when he needs to take a break. And then, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:55

And was he there for the bath?

Kassie McCleeary: 30:56

yeah, so he was there. He came and then I ended up being induced because I think I was so good at telling my daughter to stay up there that it was like the first step of the soft, uh, sort of just, um, they had four steps to inducing. They're like, we'll do the first one and see how you react. And that got things going. But, uh, So we could plan it out, which I think, okay, we're going to go to the hospital tomorrow. You're coming with me. And they were really like, normally the husbands don't get a meal, but they like somehow would always have one. And he was so used to have a little hospital routine at that point that it was like, okay, I set up my chair like this. I turned on the soccer game. And then like, I was like, okay, well, what about, aren't I the, you just had a baby. Um, but he could be there and he, you know, has been Like, basically, since we moved to Paris, had wanted to be, like, was ready to be a dad. I mean, he admitted later he wasn't actually ready then, but was just waiting for me to be ready. So it was, um, could still be there, um, and even though he was,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:51

special to tell your daughter. Sorry, I've just interrupted you. I wasn't looking. But I think for, um, a similar situation that my youngest daughter was six months when my husband died. So it's things like that, the tiny little bit of time they have with them. you'll be able to say that he was there when she came into the world. You know, that is, that's quite a monumental moment. Well, quite, it's a very monumental moment, this birth of your

Kassie McCleeary: 32:13

yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:14

And I think that as she gets older, she'll be very grateful that you guys were able to facilitate that for her. Um, so how old is she now? She must only be four or five months. So you've got a fairly newborn there.

Kassie McCleeary: 32:25

Well, that was, That was 2021. So now she's, she'll be three

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:29

Oh my God. It was, I'm so sorry. Oh my God. Oh,

Kassie McCleeary: 32:33

No, she'll be three. She'll be three. Yes. So she got to, she got a couple of years. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:38

Good. So you've managed and, and I bet you've got plenty of photos, haven't you? I've got about

Kassie McCleeary: 32:42

Oh, we've got a thousand photos. And I kind of, I mean, one of the things to figure out, like, I'm going to do albums and things. So I'm like, how many photos do I have up where it doesn't look like a shrine? But then it also like, It's her dad,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:53

send you a picture of my wall. It's called The Wall of Love. I've got like a corridor from my back door and it's just the hot, it's a big tall ceiling 'cause it's quite an old house and it's just covered in pictures. And there's pictures before they died. Like pictures of Ben and Sarah's kids picture right up to now. And it's, I thought it was a bit kind of, whoa, when I first did it. But everybody that comes into my house stops and looks at it, the kids, like, often I'll just find them stood in the corridor just looking at the photos. It's really, it's, yeah, I think you can never have too many.

Kassie McCleeary: 33:20

That's it. I'm kind of like, well, for now, I'm like, well, I have all the photos that were up, like, before he passed away, so I'm just like, I haven't changed any. Um, and it's not like he left, or like, it was like, the We would have preferred he still be here. Um, so it's, um, but our daughter,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:40

it, now I've taken off on an interior design tangent.

Kassie McCleeary: 33:43

I mean, it's, it's a valid question. Cause like how much, I think it depends how it's presented to like if it's set up like a shrine, then it looks like a shrine, but, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:52

And I was very, very conscious. I didn't want that. I didn't want that sort of, I wanted it to them, him to just kind of be part of entwined into our lives. So the pictures just to be up, like not to have this kind of Ben section, but just to have pictures dotted around because actually it's all those kids have got, isn't it? They, they don't have these solid core memories that we do. And I got a video of Tabby about, I don't know, not even a year looking at a picture and you know, that's daddy, that's daddy. And. I'm, I really like that, that she's got this awareness. Anyway, I digress. So take me back now. So you've just had your baby. Do, are you happy to share her name? What's her name?

Kassie McCleeary: 34:30

Her name is Constance and we call her Constance. So,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:35

and in Paris, that's,

Kassie McCleeary: 34:37

I know Coco Coco and then she had my name cause my, my husband's, I never took my husband's last name. So it's Coco McCleary. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:44

name.

Kassie McCleeary: 34:45

yeah, it works. No, his last name was, uh, which means like a joint in French. Like it's, he was like, it's just not like, it's just a boy maybe, but like, wasn't

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:55

Can't think, can't think why you didn't give your kid that name.

Kassie McCleeary: 34:57

Right. And he's like a little girl trying to like deal with that. Like, no. And in English, no one can say it. Like, so. He didn't like hyphenated

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:04

And Coco McCleary, I mean,

Kassie McCleeary: 35:05

So Coco McLeary.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:07

in a book,

Kassie McCleeary: 35:07

I'm like, yeah, I'm like, we, I don't, my husband, it was really important, like, I found notes after he died that were like things he wanted for our daughter and it was like to have like cool denim jackets and like leather perfectos and nice sneakers until she's eight. I don't know what happens when she's eight, but, um, we have like cute little like faux leather jackets that she likes to wear and walk around in. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:29

like my little girl. She's got a very eclectic fashion taste and I

Kassie McCleeary: 35:33

Oh, yeah, she picks out her clothes. Even like the ladies at the crash sometimes are like we can tell she's looking at what we're wearing and then sometimes she likes it and we actually feel like we've gotten approval from someone who knows what they're talking about. she's two and a half. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:48

the mums at school told me I looked young, which I was very pleased about. And then Tabby got me to stand in front of her so she could assess whether she thought I looked young. And I just did it. I was like,

Kassie McCleeary: 35:57

That's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:58

passed. I passed the

Kassie McCleeary: 35:59

so, yeah, it was, it was one of the teachers like, yeah, I put on a coat with a nice belt and she was like, Oh, like Jody Montel. And I was like, super excited that she, I don't know.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:09

I love this. I love the sound of this kid. She sounds awesome.

Kassie McCleeary: 36:11

This she's got character.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:15

But I am going to just drag you back into the sad stuff, if I may. Yes, we can have a little break every now and then and talk about clothes. But, um, I I'm thinking now, so you've, you've now got a newborn baby, which anybody who has a baby or has had a baby knows that that is no walk in the park, but you've also got a very sick husband.

Kassie McCleeary: 36:34

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:35

How on earth did you manage?

Kassie McCleeary: 36:37

I don't know. It's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:39

That's a really good answer.

Kassie McCleeary: 36:40

You just, you do what you have to do. Um, I mean, my family was there the first month or so, um, to help. Um, which is good because I don't, I think I kind of like underestimated how just like tired your body is and how your organs are just trying to get back in place. And typically I'm kind of like a, like to be out and about, pretty active, do a lot of sports. So it was like, okay, no, your body is really like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:08

Fucked.

Kassie McCleeary: 37:09

Like, this is not, this is a sensation I have yet to have felt. And then my family left and we went to his mom's, um, so I think, and I think that's maybe what's unique to my situation is that I never had the, I guess, privilege of having someone, like, I've never known what it's like to have a full partner while I'm taking care of a kid. Um, he did his best. He really tried to be there and he would, you know, any energy that he had when first or daughter, um, but he's, you know, in the summer, that summer was just getting used to the meds. They were readjusting things, trying to figure out what worked best. Um, so I mean, unfortunately, newborns nap a lot. Um, so they would nap

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:51

thing they have going for them.

Kassie McCleeary: 37:53

Yes, um, and then I don't know if our daughter had some sort of just, I mean, I think she's just like this or some sort of sixth sense that like, I need to be calm, but at two months she started sleeping through the night.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:07

That's really weird, okay, because Tabby is not a good sleeper. She was never a good sleeper from birth and she's certainly not a good sleeper now at six. The week that Ben died, she slept through the night. That's just that one week. And I

Kassie McCleeary: 38:19

like you needed that.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:21

It's weird. It makes it so weird. You know, you're looking and thinking, Oh, that's weird. But it's like it's the only thing that they can do for you in that moment is to give you that break, yeah.

Kassie McCleeary: 38:31

So she started sleeping through the night and like I mean I woke up and I was breastfeeding So like my boobs were enormous and I was like, oh my god I haven't fed all night like is she

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:40

you panic. You panic,

Kassie McCleeary: 38:41

what's going on? And no, she just super sweet laying there and all fine. And I was just like this is Great. And some people are like, wait, wait, wait. What did you do? What's your magic trick? I was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:51

in the maternity class hates you right now.

Kassie McCleeary: 38:53

nothing. We did nothing. She decided to do it. And that was it. Like, so I think that was,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:59

babies do what babies do, right? You can do all the sleep training. I had two that didn't sleep and one that was brilliant.

Kassie McCleeary: 39:05

and it's just like, they're, that was it. Um, and then she, you know, she started like later on, she like was getting teeth and so she'd wake up, but even then we'd like seed and she'd be back to bed and like 15 to 20 minutes, not like three hours. Like some of my friends who would get up and then, you know, Never have it. So I think that was, yeah. Yeah. Uh, I don't, I think I probably would have cracked at that point. Um, so it was, um, I, I don't, I can't compare it to having, like, I don't have any other child experience besides that, but I definitely was.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:37

Did you feel that you were able to enjoy it? I know that's a bit of a challenging question but it is hard, that early motherhood. It is really, it's relentless and like you say, the physical and, and I, I just remember, Um, and I'm wondering if there was time for you to actually get to enjoy that in all of this.

Kassie McCleeary: 40:02

Uh, yeah, I definitely think there was time to enjoy it. I mean, there's also times that I like just looked at my kid and was like, I know that like, you might not know your dad. Like, that's really hard. Because even if we had that positive feeling, you're still like, we're, we're hitting, we're not going to have a long life with a whole bunch of, like, I don't want to have a whole bunch of kids, but like, You're, there's amount of tragedy that's around your birth.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:25

Oh God, yeah,

Kassie McCleeary: 40:27

That's just like, she's so perfect and precious. And then to think that she's going to have to live through something really hard at some point,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:35

me off.

Kassie McCleeary: 40:37

it was really hard, you know, there's so little and perfect and they're tiny little faces. And you're just like, I mean, you don't want anything bad to happen to them. And you just, you know, that's something she's going to have to live through something really hard.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:50

I know, I know, and it's, you can't do anything, that's, I think that's what I struggled with, is you are there to protect them, and if something like this happens, it's absolutely fuck all you can do, and you have to just be there, the kind of shield between them, and it, and that's an enormous responsibility as well, because you're, you're going through hell yourself, but I, I, I really can relate to that, I can remember looking at Tabs and just thinking, You know, you're kind of spared the grief of because boys were so aware of what happened and you're spared that, but you also, your beginning has been tarnished and your birth will forever be entwined with this loss. And, and that's, um, and nobody wants that for their kids. Nobody wants that. We want, we want them to have this perfect, nobody has a perfect life. All right. But we want that. We want that regardless. And we think, and I was referred to the kind of Disney stories whenever, in fact, John took the three of the kids to see a film at the weekend and he just texted me. And he's like, The parent, obviously, because they all have a dead parent, so they're using it as this kind of worst thing that can happen for the protagonist and then we're watching it have play out in real life and we can't stop it. So I think, um, yeah, he's saying you get emotional then that's

Kassie McCleeary: 41:58

Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:59

It's tough. Anything to do with the kids, man. Anything to do with the kids.

Kassie McCleeary: 42:02

right. I think that's, I mean, everything is hard about this, but I think that's probably the harder.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:06

especially when they know, you know, that they would have been such a great dad too.

Kassie McCleeary: 42:10

When he wanted it so bad and he's, and when I just see the energy that he would find, even though he, you know, layered on all these different treatments and was completely exhausted and in pain. And it was, you know, there's always time for her. There's always time to, you know, make her laugh. And, like, Like I could get her to like smile but like the first person who got her to really laugh and giggle was him and he could do it like in two seconds but then like

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:33

swan in.

Kassie McCleeary: 42:34

they just like come in

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:35

smile, first word.

Kassie McCleeary: 42:37

all night and like he wanted to be there to change the diapers so even so he had to set up because bending over too far on his back would hurt but he would you know move pillows around and find it away so he could do it comfortably because he didn't want to leave me all of it and he ended up I mean there's a lot of stuff he just couldn't do so I was like all nuts This is not how we would have done it if you're fully healthy, but like I'm, I think from the get go knew that it was never going to be 50 50. I mean, is it ever 50 50? I think there's times that one parent does more, there's times the other parent does more, like in the end it equals out, but you know, various phases of life means you're doing more. But mine was like from the beginning and my, my just the beginning of motherhood. I still think of the last visit I went to go see my friend before my husband went to Emergency room was like in the sun running along the ocean and it was like the last really carefree moment and I just had this big belly and like it was, uh, but even at that point, like I had like an extra pillow for my knees being pregnant and he had like five because his back was bothering him so bad. So it's like, okay, something's up. Um, But we had kind of got into a groove. I supposed to go back to work, but I was planning on like using some of my maternity leave to look for a new job. So I just didn't go back to work and I was able to negotiate a departure. That was, I wanted to leave anyway, but that left me some extra

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:57

that after my first one.

Kassie McCleeary: 43:59

I was like, I don't know.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:01

They

Kassie McCleeary: 44:01

We'll

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:02

they asked for volunteers for redundancy, I was like, yes!

Kassie McCleeary: 44:05

when I was like, they weren't like, well, you know, we can be sexually, you can come back like this. I was like, you know what? Financially it makes the most sense for me to be on unemployment. Cause that's like what I get the best of. And like, you guys, you understand numbers really well. So, um, and I don't want the pressure every month to decide if I need to come back or not. And they were great. They let

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:21

leaving a baby to go back to work, but leaving a baby and a sick husband, man.

Kassie McCleeary: 44:25

And I was just like, I'm not in a mental space. Like I'm trying to keep a child alive. And then my husband has a life threatening illness. Like I just like email

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:33

Got my

Kassie McCleeary: 44:34

what like can't think about it. Um, so that was, I guess in the fall and my husband started, like the treatment was going quite well. He's still quite tired, but, um, you know, we were. Like, okay, well, maybe we can find something that works like this is, uh, you know, um, maybe this could last a while, uh, we'll see. And we went to the US for Christmas. And then while he was in the U S he kind of, I think, started feeling a little bit funky. And then of course we are super strict with like distancing and COVID and whatnot. And then he got COVID. So we had to stay an extra week. Um, Yeah. So I was like, if anyone could have gotten COVID, I would have gotten COVID

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:13

of course, he can't go to bed yet.

Kassie McCleeary: 45:14

like at least in my mom and my sister had, was also pregnant and had her baby. And so he, we had a premature born baby. So all these people who are at risk that were like, okay, everything is super, super strict. And then somehow, yeah, it's my husband who got sick. Um, but then I think already the medicine had stopped working and he was having sort of these like minor little seizures again, which meant that the brain tumor was back. Um, So we got back and a couple months later, it was brain surgery, radiation, different chemo.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:45

surgery, that's, I

Kassie McCleeary: 45:46

Yeah, that was, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:47

the way you've just like, yeah, brain surgery, but that's massive,

Kassie McCleeary: 45:50

yes. And it was just like, it was in a good location, but that was the tumor that was causing the, so he'd like really lost the ability to use his left leg. And this is all in less than a year. That's just like twice as like medicine, medicine, medicine, losing use of your leg, uh, brain surgery. And then I had, At that point felt comfortable thinking about work again and had been reached out to by someone I'd worked with before, um, who had worked freelance for with, um. In a job that I like absolutely perfect job that I wanted. And she was, my boss is amazing. And I was like, well, you can come back three days a week. If you want, you can work from home. Even if you're in Paris, like, um, you know, I'll be like really flexible. I understand your situation. She'd also just had a child. So it was very like, okay, like we want, like, I think you're a good fit for the job and we'll work with your family situation, but even then I delayed the week I was supposed to start work because it's like my husband's in the hospital of brain surgery. It's like, help me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 46:53

you're not going to be able to concentrate. I'm just thinking that you must be very good at your job because you, like, people are really wanting you to come work for them here. So this is, this is speaking a lot about you as well.

Kassie McCleeary: 47:03

it was a bit of a niche, I suppose that I was, uh, she'd worked with me before and was happy with what I did. And, um, it was in the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:11

What do you do? I'm being

Kassie McCleeary: 47:12

I'm a, I work for an urban plan, urban planning firm that specializes in bicycle urbanism, so like bike plans, uh, infrastructure strategy. And then I was, um, have an education department that does master, like professional masterclasses and like. Learning expedition trips and big, like, research projects for European, like, European Union funded projects on, like, you know, greening cities or cycle logistics, things like that. Um, so I had had experience with a lot more of the kind of teaching. I have an urban planning degree. But then also had done a lot of the sort of facilitating groups, bringing people together, building communities, uh, doing master class sort of stuff. So I had a, an ensemble of skills that she liked and then she didn't have to recruit anyone else. So, um, good fit, uh, good culture and really positive people. positive place to work, um, which when you're dealing with a lot of shit at home, um, at least that was never an issue. So I could go to work and it was, um, I was,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:14

I guess.

Kassie McCleeary: 48:15

yeah, the, and I could just be, you know, uh,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:20

Just be

Kassie McCleeary: 48:21

in charge of education and research. And, you know, people knew I had a kid, but colleagues knew that I had a, my husband was sick, but no one, or I kind of like mentioned it and it's not that I didn't

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:32

The problem is, as soon as you mention it, people want to ask questions, and then you're getting pulled into a long conversation, aren't

Kassie McCleeary: 48:38

And it was, I mean, for the most part, like, I'm pretty transparent if you ask, but it's amazing how easily, if you don't leave, it's amazing how easy it is to leave out information.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:48

Really big information as well,

Kassie McCleeary: 48:50

Right. And I'm like, I, but like, if I get into it, then I get into it and it's nice to go to work where I'm not every week having to give an update. And I love that I have friends who got that update every week when they would see me, they'd ask how things were going. We talk about it for two minutes or an hour, depending on where I was at. Um, which I needed that, but then it also was really great to be in a place where it wasn't

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:12

Yeah, I think we all need somewhere where we can just be kind of normal and we talk about having the babies and um, when Ben died, I can remember taking Tabby back to the baby groups because A, you've got that whole, I don't want them to be completely tarnished by this thing that's happened. But also I could go there and sing, you know, wind the bobbin up. Do you have wind the bobbin up in Paris? I don't know. Wind the

Kassie McCleeary: 49:33

I don't know.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:33

It's a classic. Um, and it's not, you're going to Google it afterwards and you won't be able to stop

Kassie McCleeary: 49:39

Yep.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:39

Um, And you're normal. You can just be Tabitha's mum, like I didn't have to be the widow, and I didn't know many people in the class, so it wasn't like I really knew my story, and I just would keep quiet and just enjoy being with her. And I think a lot of people find solace in work or sport or whatever it be. I think when you are going through some sort of traumatic experience, you need an escape. Um, so I'm really glad that this opportunity came along for you.

Kassie McCleeary: 50:04

that was, yeah, it just fell in nicely. And then, I mean, my boss knew what was going on, but she wasn't also asking everything. She's like, I kind of sensed that, like, it was just nice for you to come be somebody else here. And I was like, yeah. You know what, I hadn't thought of it that way, but it is, it is nice and I can just like make jokes about stuff and it doesn't have to be as heavy, uh, and I can progress, like I have a future, even if my husband doesn't, so that was,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:28

that's, you know, that's really key, that.

Kassie McCleeary: 50:30

and it's like not something you really want to think about, but I think that's where maybe I'm ready to talk five months after my husband passed, because there's this whole grieving process that starts much, much earlier when you have cancer, and so I guess I started working, um, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:46

grief, I think that is, that's the word, anticipatory grief. So you've already done a lot of your grieving and your planning and your mourning, but that doesn't mean that when they actually die, it's not an enormous

Kassie McCleeary: 50:57

still awful. Yeah. And it's, it's something else. And like, to see them get to the point where they die after years of struggling is, is not something that, so I don't know what's better because we've

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:08

Uh, the eternal debate, right? The eternal

Kassie McCleeary: 51:11

isn't one that's better. But I think as far as my mental health, I think maybe, I mean, I don't know, because then there's two years, three years of my life that it's been I don't know. under immense, like, sort of existential stress because I know what's coming and it was probably, I think that summer, so I started working. My daughter was about a year old and we'd, you know, had this brain surgery, we're starting a chemo, it didn't work, it wasn't kind of, it was the beginning of just starting, like, every, Basically, our life was on a three month schedule and we'd have the next scans because we'd have things that we felt were working, but it'd work in the lungs, and then the brain tumor would come back, or it'd work in the brain, but then the lung tumor would come back, um, and it was just like every, shifting new treatments. And I think that summer I like didn't look online because just don't ever look online if anything's wrong ever because

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:59

You're definitely dying.

Kassie McCleeary: 52:01

Um, but I found statistics that was basically like that type of cancer if it's diagnosed um And it was numbers from the u. s I was like, okay, you can say it's a little bit different because healthcare is different people might not go as early But ultimately it was people who were diagnosed with this type of cancer And it was metastasized like in an organ far away. So the brain is about as far as you can get from the lungs. Um, like it was something like seven or nine percent of people with that diagnosis are alive five years later.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:34

Oh god, I thought you were going to say survive it, but finally you say that's not a great statistic,

Kassie McCleeary: 52:39

No. So it's like one out of 10 and you don't know what state they're in like five years later they're, and like this isn't just projections, this is like stats from like the last set of like most recent set of data from the late 2010s of actual diagnosed cases and their survival rates. So when you see that and like I have a 1-year-old daughter and I was like, okay, we're gonna shut my computer. Like, this is what no one's saying, and no one wants to say, but like, I can't,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:06

You can't ignore it, can you?

Kassie McCleeary: 53:07

I can't ignore that, and I can't, we can, we can say that there's always a chance, there's that 7%, yes, there's that, or 9%, or whatever it was, but it was under 10, um, we can say he's healthy, but like, we're dealing with something that's, um, Not going to end if, if he makes it to her daughter's fifth birthday, it's going to be like a miracle. I mean, I believe I've never been religious, but it was like some sort of unsure for unusual reasons we've gotten here. But like, there is going to be something pretty extraordinary that happens for him to make it that long.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:43

everybody, everybody hopes that still that there'll be that, that, you know, because we hear of miracles. Don't you hear of people just, but

Kassie McCleeary: 53:50

like those stories, the sad ones we don't like to tell all the time or we do, but there's so many of them, they get lost.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:57

And also you feel like, why not me? Like, why can they have a miracle and not me? It's that you get quite, um, I felt like a kind of cross toddler almost, I'm like, it's not fair and it isn't fair. It isn't fair and

Kassie McCleeary: 54:10

yeah, I, I have to say I was never quite stumbled because I have a friend who lost her dad and she was very like, it's just not fair. And I was like, it's, but I don't know where, and maybe it was his brother dying shortly before that, like, there's nothing, life just isn't fair. Life isn't fair. We're going to start from a beginning point where things are unfair and things are unjust. And what we're trying to do is, you know, As humans and like in communities is trying to make things fair and more just and whatever for everyone, but like that's not the natural state of things,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:41

No, and it's

Kassie McCleeary: 54:42

perhaps and sad, but

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:45

It's the truth of it, isn't it? And we, it's a real cliche to say that cancer doesn't discriminate. And we all know that there are mitigating things you can do to improve your chances if you get cancer. But when it comes in and it comes in big and strong, it's And it comes into a healthy young person, the, the kind of outcomes of these are often not great because for it to take control so quickly without any predispositions, without any, you know, dangerous lifestyle factors, then this thing is tough.

Kassie McCleeary: 55:13

and that's like, essentially what I was like, okay, well, and he never had symptoms of like as long as we don't we think that the voice thing wasn't actually determined as long it was more of like a tumor in his brain that was hitting something. It's not really now. So, We never had, like, there's nothing that we missed that could have indicated it was his lungs that were the problem. So we were kind of just fucked from the beginning

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:36

assassin, this thing, isn't it? It's, it's,

Kassie McCleeary: 55:38

pretty much. Yeah, it was, it was awful, but that was, I think, so like a year in and I was like, okay, this is, at that point it already sort of, um, Or had grieved or was grieving the sort of like, okay, our life, uh, isn't going to be at all. It hasn't been, and I don't think it's going to be very soon. Something that we would have imagined before. It's going to be sort of long term hard. Um, and sort of this is ending with him dying. Not with, you know, years of remission. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:16

did you talk about this with him, this idea that he was going to die or, you know, the chances were very much tilted against his favor. Um, I, I'm curious because I personally haven't had I imagine, because at some point I probably will, you know, we all lose somebody to an illness at some point, but I've not had to do the sort of, you know, conversation about the end. So I can't, I've spoken to other people that have, obviously, but for me, I can't really imagine having to do that. And I, I suppose I'm trying to just kind of get an understanding of how he, how well, that's not the right word, how he responded to this information.

Kassie McCleeary: 56:55

I didn't directly go tell him that I found these statistics. I was kind of like, okay, I'm gonna like, this is, um, and I think the doctor, he really wanted to not protect me because he was open with all of the things he was, the like, you know, recap of what he had at the doctor, but I think to a certain extent it was his demon to deal with and he knew I was taking care of everything else. Um, and you know, I think one week out of the whole entire time that Our daughter was alive and he was alive. He picked up every day from the crash and I dropped off. So there was one week that we split 50, 50 pickup and drop off. And normally he would help one or two days a week, have a babysitter. But like I was doing a lot more of the work. So I think he was kind of keeping some of the worst. He would reshare it. Cause when I like would do recaps with the doctor after he's like, okay, it was completely transparent about it. Um, But I, I don't know when it was like, we know, we knew that there was going to be an after that he wasn't there. We didn't really have a timeline. Um, so, you know, he would, he wanted to do some, like we had to hit some small, you know, an apartment that he bought. He wanted to set things up with a notary to make sure that, uh, like the notary had things in line and we're looking at things that are sort of, we know that there's going to be a future without him, but like, is it? And he would always joke, even when we were younger, he's like, he had torn both ACLs, like he was just a great habit for like, breaking bones while playing sports or something. So he always kind of made this joke that like, at 40, he would, his knees wouldn't work anymore and I would be pushing him in a wheelchair while we ran a half, like while I ran a marathon or like, or that he would, you know, You know, he's just like no one in my family lives. I was like, okay, like, okay, well, that was a joke. Now it's not

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:42

Hilarious, right?

Kassie McCleeary: 58:43

I don't think this is very funny. Um, so it was kind of a reference. And he's also just you want to live like you're young, you have a daughter, you have a life that you want. And he was still working. He had worked for this American company that was a startup that during COVID needed someone in France, because it was dealing with vineyards and they had some. Um, special cameras that were doing analysis. So he was perfectly placed also to kind of like do the strategic link between these. And he also loved wine. And every time we went on, like drove anywhere, we'd stop at some random vineyard and just make friends with the guy and like, what's your best wine. And we'd taste a whole bunch of stuff. So our cab was always full of, I mean, no one who knows him was ever like, he'd disappear and we're like, where'd he go? And he'd come back up from the basement with like more bottles. And, um, um, So he was very good at relating to someone who might be a little bit more just like a farmer in the side of France, but then could also talk to people, um, in a startup in the United States. So he was, um, Yeah, and really well placed to make that because he'd, you know, been to I'm from Ohio, so it's the Midwest and could relate to people there. But then also, you know, you go to a one star restaurant, he could talk about wine with somebody. And, um, so just a quite relatable person in a lot of context. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:04

Did the hospital ever kind of sit you guys down together and, you know, at what point was the conversation had? Because they must have told you at some point that with there is nothing more we can do.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:00:15

so they, it would have been so the summer I look things up and then it would have been like eight months later, like the following March when we had just continued to try new things. So it would have been March 22nd, 23. Um, and he got home from a doctor visit and I knew, and he had actually had a chemo that like he felt really good. He looked, he had no hair, but like he felt good. So we were kind of like cautiously optimistic, um, that it was okay, that, Maybe even though chemo like you can't be on chemo forever. It's poison and like his body he'd lost like 20 kilos at this point like Yes, but we're like hey if you actually feel good And this was like that that week when he went and picked up our daughter like every day and felt good enough to walk to the creche and come back because you know everything here is walking and um I got back and kind of looked at him and was like, okay, what's up? He's like, just go to your run. Like I was planning to go for a run. He's like, just go. And I was like, I knew then that I was like, this is bad news. Cause he doesn't want to tell me in front of Constance. Um, so I went for that run and I knew I was just kind of like, I'm just gonna enjoy this last, like, I don't know, 40 minutes before I'm figuring out, like get bad news and it's nice out and I'm just going to go for this run and like, I know something bad is coming and I know it's probably like. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:01:40

I bet you just wanted to keep running, didn't you?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:01:42

and I was like, I'm just going to go. Yeah. I'm just like, I just want to keep going. And if I keep going, maybe like, it's not going to happen. But I got back and his doctor was like, your lungs are great, but your brain, like there's like, they don't even tell us how many tumors are in there. Like there's so many tumors that have come back and the whole bunch of little ones that are just everywhere. And when there's too many, which in general, they're at like, we only had one surgery this whole time, because if you have a ton of tumors, like what's the point, like, you can't, like, you need a treatment that's going to kill them. Uh, you can't just. Carve each one out. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:14

Especially with the brain.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:02:16

yeah, and she was like, we're gonna go radiation work before it was targeted radiation. So it's just on the one tumor after his surgery this time they're like, we're doing general so it's your whole brain that gets radiated, like it's just hardcore and it's it's And at the same time, they're like, well, we can wait till that's done to start another chemo. And he's like, no, go directly. Like, I'm not. And like, that's where it was like, if there's an option, it's like, let's just do it. But that means he's building up chemo and radiation at the same time. And then that's when she said, look, this is really serious or not serious. She's like, I, we've tried everything we're, we're going to keep treating it. Um, but at this point, we're getting into older versions of the medicine that we know are going to be less effective. Um, and so that was, I mean, I guess I'd already, like, you know that that day's coming, but then to have it confirmed was, like, And she didn't give us any time either, and he was like, what, do I have two years? Do I have one year? Do I have, like, what's, what is it? And she's like, I forget, but it was never a concrete time, because it was, like, you don't, you don't know. But it was kind of like this is really aggressive and we're doing everything we can but like we can't we get there's nothing that's working and we can't pile on three different treatments to treat every different part of your body because like you just can't then your quality of life. Like you're going to be just in bed. So like, what can we do to preserve the best quality of life for as long as possible? But basically there's nothing new, like everything we're going to do is going to be slightly less effective moving forward. Um, and that like, we'd already, we knew, I guess we'd already vocalized that that was happening. We already knew that. You know, we wanted to set things up at that point. I was like, pretty like, okay, can you, can we just switch everything to my name now? Cause he did a lot of the bill payment and it wasn't that I didn't understand it. He was just like, you're doing all the physical stuff you're doing, all of that other, like that mental charge of things like you're doing, I can sit in bed and like move some things around on the computer. But that was also like his last thing that he could do and control. So it was like, okay, just, you know, put like Netflix, it's dumb, but like, Let's put my name on it instead of yours and it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:43

If you don't realize how many things are in their name until they die. Like it's mental.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:04:48

still in it like it's And like fortunately he was a big picture person So he had created a holding with his uncle that had like two parking spots and a couple investments, but they're all recent So like they're not paid off now. I'm like still in the whole succession steps look but um It was then that it was like, okay, we need to start preparing things in a much more concrete way and not just in a hypothetical way. Um, we had already just our daughter's whole life. We're pretty good at just getting good photos, lots of videos, um, keeping kind of like, okay, this like, you know, there's some baseball hats that you see in a ton of photos that my husband was wearing that I'm like, okay, we're going to keep this, um, you know, a scarf and he was already pretty like into, um, Like, I mean, he got into watches and then, I don't know, the first summer he was sick, he like had this like morphine high where he's like, we need to enjoy the money we have while we have it. And just like bought five watches while trying to find the perfect one that he's going to give to our daughter when she's older. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:53

You know that, um, my life has been, John is one of the founders of a company called Watchfinder, which it,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:05:59

well, I might have some to sell.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:01

he doesn't work for them anymore. They got bought out in 2020, funnily enough. But, um, yeah, it's, it's funny hearing cause, um, Sarah, Holly's mom had a very, a nice watch that's in a safe for her. I'm like, I got bent like a 50 pound fossil. What for me was sort of in our twenties and that's, that's his watch. But, um, yeah, yeah. I can't, I

Kassie McCleeary: 1:06:20

mean, we have,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:21

another conversation.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:06:22

have a couple of different levels of watches, but, um, no, he was just on this, like, we should enjoy life. Like, I mean, already had this idea in general was like a good, like, bon vivant, as they say in French, like, uh, have a good time with your friends, get out, like, you know, let's enjoy the time that we have. And then, especially with his brother passing away, it was like, you never know when things are going to end and then he gets sick. Um, so really pushed, I think the whole time through, even, you know, Through feeling like crap, like let's try to schedule a weekend away. Let's go do this. So he went on a weekend with the guys in Spain and like called me. I was like, yeah, I threw up in the trash can like three times, but you know, he went, um, so it was, uh, not ideal, but he, you know, still tried to be a, you know, guy in his mid thirties, who's a dad and doing things. And after his radiation. So after we got that diagnosis, we went, he felt okay. So we went to the U S which we knew was going to be more or less our last time. Very likely the last time he would come. With me. So it would have been spring of 2023. Um, and he was exhausted cause I think he, again, he always underestimated how tired he was after radiation. Um, but we got to, it fell in our seventh wedding anniversary. So my parents or my sister was like, I know you're super, like, you don't have time to plan anything, but let's get together because I know people want to see him and I have a huge family, like 50 of us. So, uh, my mom and my sister decided to throw us a seventh wedding anniversary party.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:07:49

Cute.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:07:50

Um, but that way we could have a ton of family get together without having it be because John's dying, come say goodbye. Like it was, hey, in our wedding we got married really quickly cause uh, for the visas to come back to France. Even though we knew we'd get married and we were planning. We were still planning to have a 2026 like 10 year big huge weekend wedding where we'd invite everyone, all of our friends from all over the world to come hang out. Uh, clearly we're not doing that. Um, But we wanted to have kids and then just have a big party when we had, you know, more money Uh, so we never celebrated our wedding with my family really so it was kind of the opportunity to be like It's our seventh wedding anniversary um

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:29

Did you wear a nice dress? That's the big question.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:08:31

wear a cute funder. It was like a big fun floral dress that I was like, okay We're just gonna do something loud and you know, it's like a brick red bright lipstick and just okay We're just gonna have a fun flowy kind of backyard Party kind of thing. So it was um You I mean, it was great, but it was, um, I mean, it was great just to have, and my sister was like, you guys don't worry about anything, we're doing catering, like, just,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:54

Just

Kassie McCleeary: 1:08:54

it was a ton of fun. Um, even, and then, you know, he could take a nap if he needed to, because it was in my parents backyard, instead of doing it at a venue, and like, our daughter was just, I don't know, everyone thinks she's just the cutest little Parisian, and she'll say things, like, in French, and they're just like, oh my god. Goodness, like, oh, um, how cute. And I mean, she's obviously unbiased. I think she's adorable. But, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:16

nature's way of keeping them with us, you know,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:09:18

right, right.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:19

I wouldn't take that attitude from anybody that wasn't cute.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:09:22

Well, I'm like, she's just like, okay, enjoying life. And she's like, mama, where are you? And then someone would come find me. And they're like, okay, she wants to say hi. And she's like, okay, just checking. And then she'd go off and play. And like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:33

But do you think that's like, just making sure you're still there, like, the eyes are, my kids are like that, they need to know, they're not desperately clingy anymore, they went through phase, but it's more they, they need to know where I am.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:09:43

said, okay, all good. Um, so we did that and then we got back and he was, I mean, it took a lot out of him and he just like the summer. I mean, I was, things were going great at work. Things are busy. Our kids going, but we're, we're feeling, we know that, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:01

Time is ticking.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:10:02

time is ticking. Um, but that summer we were able, his doctor put him back on the first medicine that he had, and I think it was probably one of the, like, she knew it wouldn't be effective for long, uh, because he had already stopped working before, but he was able to get into nice enough shape over the summer that we could take, like, a family trip back. To Portugal and my sister came with her little kid and he really felt I think the best he'd felt in like over a year coincidentally for that trip, um And it was great. We have beautiful Photo album, it was perfect weather like he was voluntarily getting up at like 9 which like typically I'm alone every morning to like noon because he would sleep until noon. So I was Oh, it's me and my daughter in the mornings, like doing whatever. Um, and then I wouldn't want to go far away for a day trip or something. Cause when he wakes up, I want her to have time with him. So, but he was getting up and like ready to go. Um, so it was, I think a really sort of precious amount of time, but then we got back last fall and it was kind of just a slow or not so slow, I guess, decline of, um, More treatments. Okay, we're going to layer this. We're going to do this. We're going to do this. Fatigue. Pain. Constantly. Um, And I think our daughter just like, she knew the whole, like she knows daddy was sick. And then sometimes I would have to leave to go do something and she would just like, You know, 20 month old would just sit and play on the bed for an hour, like next to him while he would like nap and kind of sleep, she'd play with her toys and just be next to him. So it was like one of those things again, where you're like, there's some like symbiotic thing that's happening here. Mom needs to go do something. And like, Daddy doesn't have the energy to, but like, you're going to go down to his energy level and be calm and like, that's, uh, I mean, I think partly just her and then partly something else that she, she, she sensed, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:11:57

They're very intuitive kids. And I think, especially when they're younger, I think it sort of drifts out of them a little as they get older, but when they're little, um, and that's that kind of visual image of her sitting and playing next to her dad. Who's too sick to really be able to play with her. That's quite a powerful image, actually. Um, yeah, it, it. You know, it is. Compartmentalizing

Kassie McCleeary: 1:12:19

I mean, sweet, but also just so sad. And I think sometimes when you're in it, like, You know, it's sad and it's hard. And like, I don't know how many times I rode, like, I ride my bike to work. It's about 30 minutes. And I don't know how many times I would just like cry on my way to work. And I'd like bike ride of just letting it out, going to work. Um, okay. Like. Now I'm at work and I'm, like, transitioning to that person who's like, okay, I'm just here, you know, we're doing dynamic stuff, I'm often presenting and leading things where it takes a certain, like, amount of mental and, I guess, emotional energy of being peppy and getting people pumped and, like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:13:01

It's almost like putting a mask on, isn't it? Like putting, um,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:13:05

just kind of like, this is where I'm at. And then, I mean, I have that in a couple places because I also have a group that I've doing this workout classes with the same coach through COVID and like, while I was pregnant, I was working out with him. So this whole group of people who've seen me like every week, but it was another place in like, My husband was very like, okay, I know that getting up, like, I had to be there at 11, like, getting up for him at 11 every Sunday. He's like, okay, sometimes it was hard. Like, I know you need that. And I know that you're going to be like, that's the only day to do something for you. So like you do our daughter every single morning. So I'm going to like, you do it. You had to go, um, go have that time. And like, you know, Good vibes, fun people, but like most of them, I mean, people, some people knew my husband was sick, but for the most part, again, it was another place where it was like, I'm going to do this for me. I feel better. I've always been someone who's very sort of attached to, uh, not attached, but I'm kind of, uh, I guess my therapy, uh, is going out for a long run or doing something physical like that, that really just helps me center

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:02

Yeah,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:14:04

my mind. Like when I'm doing that. I don't think about other, like, that's one of the few places where I'm not bogged down or thinking about other things or being distracted. So it was,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:12

Running's quite good at that because it hurts so much that you can't think about anything else. Maybe that's just my experience of running.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:14:17

You're distracted

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:18

it anymore, my hips keep going. I'm the wrong side of 40 now.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:14:21

That's, um, I mean, running was always, I've always did sports and stuff when I was a kid. So it's been a nice way to,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:27

did not do

Kassie McCleeary: 1:14:27

um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:28

I'm a late adopter.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:14:30

It's, I mean, you know, it's never too late, but, uh, loop in your

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:33

love yoga and I'm, I do, I will, I do walk a lot and, um, I actually saw, here we go, completely different tangent here. We're middle of your death story and I'm just going to tell you. So my chiropractor, the new chiropractor, and he said, and I think it's like a third health professional that said to me, um, what, cause I'm hypermobile, so my muscles are working extra and, um, it's like maybe some heavy, some weightlifting and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to have to do this. Aren't I? This is like a third person.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:14:58

It's, yeah, no, I don't, I, I, like, that's what I started doing a lot with it, and, like, I'll, I can tell you, if you need to distract, like, you can't think about other things when you're weightlifting. Like, that effort is, uh, even if it's not really, like, the thing that gets you excited, like, it's,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:13

just kind of, you know, and also. 40 odd, menopausal, like, we need to do what we can for those bones, right?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:15:19

gotta get it. And like, you'll be like, everyone has their level, but that's something it's a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:24

entering into bodybuilding contests. You wait. I

Kassie McCleeary: 1:15:27

and you like, you know, get to, uh, it's, you know, I've

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:32

It's distraction, like most things are, but it's a healthy distraction. It's not wine or

Kassie McCleeary: 1:15:37

leads to other sort of, like, positive outcomes for you. So it's, um, And I like, I don't, I never, I, when I went back to work, so I started three days a week and then went to four and then I just never went to five I did for a month. And then we find out brain surgery, like we got the bad news that, you know, things are never going to get better. And I was like, I'm just doing four days a week. So Fridays, my daughter goes to daycare and I drop her off. I go for a long run and, uh, then the afternoon, sure. I do all those things that you do on the weekends. But when you have the primary care for your kid, you don't have time to do, uh, groceries, calling, whatever, doing admin, life admin. Sometimes it's just getting a pedicure, but I think that like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:18

You need it. Yeah, I paid for a childminder for, funny enough, it was Fridays, um, for Tabby, um, because I needed just one day where I could, you know, And it was only within the hours of the school day when the boys are at school, but it just, I joined the gym, I used to go to class, um, sometimes I'd just, you know, maybe do a laundry and you, finding something that gives you that space is so important.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:16:42

I couldn't agree more, and I think that's part of why I was able to do it. Kind of not have a breakdown at any point was like, okay, I'm handling a lot of work and sure. Like my four days at work need to be really productive because I'm only there four days. So I can't really relax at work. Like sometimes I'm like, okay, this is like, I'm in front of my computer and my brain is just like, like error, error, nothing's working. And I'm like, I don't really have time. Like I don't have time. Like I don't, I don't. Just there's no time in my day for this. So the Fridays was like, okay, I know I can do something for me, and then I can do all those things that I need to get done during the weekend. But that means I can be there during the weekend for our daughter and my

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:17:18

And your

Kassie McCleeary: 1:17:18

and we can do something. Um, I think that was, that was key. And, uh, now I'm like, what if I ever have to go back to five days a week, which like at one point I might have to, um, what is that? We should all have a day of rest, a day to do things and a day for

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:17:33

don't know if I can remember the last time I worked five years, but I do have four kids, so I reckon that counts as

Kassie McCleeary: 1:17:37

That's like, yeah, one kid. Um, like one kid is, it's, it's obviously a challenge, but it's, it's, uh, it's a kid per an adult. So like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:17:47

Yeah, but in some ways I've got friends who've only got one child and often because their husband died, unfortunately, and it's, I think sometimes it's harder because you are all they've got. So my kids, they annoy the crap out of each other, don't get me wrong, but they will eventually play. Like if we go on holiday, they accept that they have to own each other for company, so they'll play. Whereas if it's just you and one other, one child, that can be quite, um, it works demanding.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:18:10

Yeah. I mean, that's where I think it's really great that we didn't plan this, but my husband is convinced we did. That my sister had a son at the same time. So he's four months younger than

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:18:20

And this is your identical twin

Kassie McCleeary: 1:18:21

Yeah. Yeah, we didn't plan this. This is not um, but we I guess we're at the same point in our lives and my my my brother in law Ben is like yes, we did it. We did it. We timed it up and I was like Ben's like It just happened that way and so it happened that way But um, so when we could go to for example to portugal we had the two kids So sometimes it's wild because you had like two kids who were two years old But they play together and they get annoyed at each other like siblings But then like they're always like where's where's sedi and like cedric and like coco sedi coco

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:18:50

That's so cute.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:18:51

yes cedric So there's Cedric and Coco. Um, and they, you know, play together. And then I have a really good friend who was, uh, we didn't know him. We were both pregnant because it was COVID, um, but our, our kids are born 10 days apart and she lives down the street. Uh, so her son, Romeo, who lives on a balcony is

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:19:10

Cool names, these kids.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:19:12

I was like, so she's like, yeah, so she's someone I still like, we see, she watches my daughter all the time. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:19:19

need, you need a network. You absolutely need a

Kassie McCleeary: 1:19:21

she's been, her and her husband, um, Also watched my daughter when my husband was at the end when he was dying like in the hospital So she they've been just I can never really express to them and I tell her she's like it's normal Who wouldn't have watched your kid? I'm like, it's not normal. You are incredibly generous and you take my child like she's your

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:19:36

you think it would be normal, but it isn't normal. And actually, it shows a great level of compassion and kindness. And I always say to people, if somebody has lost somebody, whether it's a partner or, you know, just a really intense bereavement or trauma, um, offer to help the kids. Because part, you won't want to let your kid out of your sight, but also you have to have some time, you have to,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:19:55

well and it adds up like the cost of paying people to watch your kids is like even with all the help and whatever you want like to just know I can drop her off and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:20:05

Mm hmm. And they'll be safe and

Kassie McCleeary: 1:20:06

This, yeah, so this, I mean, and then she has someone to play with, and my friend, like, just had another baby, and I was like, I can't, I feel like I shouldn't do this, like, she's like, but then they play together, and I don't have to worry about them, like, so I can focus on the other kids, so it's, um, I think having some friends with children who are the same age, Takes away some of that, um, pressure. And then we have a number of other families that, uh, like friends who have a house in Normandy who invite us and then they have sons. So my daughter's like, Oh, loves to hang out with them. And another good family friend with a daughter that like my daughter just adores and like, Oh

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:20:40

They love it when there's somebody a little bit older, don't they? That's, that, they love an older

Kassie McCleeary: 1:20:44

like, Oh, so it's, um, I think I'm fortunate to have a number of our friends had kids. Old, I guess a couple of my husband's a couple of years older than me. And a couple of his friends who are females had a couple of year older, like husbands. So like they were all starting to have kids a little bit earlier. So now we have a number of friends who have children, um, who are a little bit older, so they had everything. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so we can go do things that are like really adapted and easy. I mean, at the same time, I also, it's important. I have friends who are single women. I'm like, this is great because I can have a babysitter. We're going to go out and do things and not worry about kids. Like we're not going

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:21:21

not to have to carry snacks and water bottles,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:21:23

Right, and then I still somehow like pull out like, I'm like, look I have like, who needs applesauce? Like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:21:28

I've got a massive bag under my desk here that I've just moved out to shop for a recording and a kid you know is like this and it's got, um, half eaten sweets and things like that.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:21:36

like all the things.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:21:37

you can't wriggle away, I'm going to pull you back in again now, so I, I'm going to ask you if you wouldn't mind. Um, and again, you always you can say no to any questions I ask, but I'm going to ask you if you don't mind taking me to the end. I know this is always a really sensitive subject, um, and things like, I guess I'm interested in, in how you, um, tell a child of, um, of Coco's age that this is happening, how they process it. But as always, if there's anything you don't want to talk about, anything that makes you feel really horrible, please don't, okay? I don't want to cause you distress.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:22:11

Uh, yeah, no, of course. Um, so yes, we get back in fall, like last fall, and it's just, uh, of just, we're saying he's getting tired, like more tired. He's more just, even just not himself in the sense that like he's just super grouchy, but he's constantly in pain. And like, just, um, and we're, I guess, talking more like he's talking to the notes there. Like he, you know, we're, we know that kind of an end is coming, but Like, I mean, I'm like, okay, we're on a really like every three months is a gift. So, um, but also I got to the point last fall where I was like, this is like, I'm kind of like being in limbo like this at the beginning we had ups and downs and right now we're just, we're just having consistent hard downs and that's, um, at one point, like, And he's just in constant pain, and pain was one thing, but then there was phases where he would have nausea and couldn't eat, and he's already super skinny, and then, like, for some reason that was worse to experience than, like, just the pain, but, um, So I got to a point where I'm like, okay, this is really, like, it's, it's really hard, um, and, like, you're not, There's nothing getting better, so it's like, well, there's, it was just this waiting game that was, I think, almost more challenging at some points than a lot of the other stuff, um, but.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:23:40

waiting for somebody to die so they can get some respite from the thing that's hurting them. Like what a hot, like rock and a hard place, right?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:23:47

And then to a certain extent, it was like, I mean, I'll kind of get to this more afterwards, but there's a certain amount of relief when like, that's what you're living with, like that you're relieved that they're not no longer feeling that pain. But then also, like, there's a relief for me personally, that I'm not trying to help someone who can't be helped, like it's, or who can't be helped. You can help them with a little bit that you can, but you know that

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:24:10

can't save them.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:24:12

there's, uh, it's heading towards something that's, it's, and it's really hard to work towards something you know is going to end badly. Badly,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:24:19

Yeah.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:24:20

um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:24:21

And I think actually the people come on here and are brave enough to say that, that sometimes it is a relief when they die because you feel like, oh my God, I can't believe I've said that. But actually, If there's no coming back, and the alternative is that they writhe around in agony, they starve, in that, you don't want that for them.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:24:40

it's awful. And like to watch that and to see, and he wanted to hold on as long as possible. So it was fall and we were still, we managed to go away to our friends, like in Normandy in December, um, I could still, it was a really busy fall for work. And some people were like, oh, do you regret working so hard? I was like, no, because honestly, and he was the last person who wanted me to miss out on something that was really cool with work or to advance myself because of his illness, that was like very straight, it's like, okay, well, my mom will come

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:25:06

in place.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:25:07

and yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:25:08

in place. You've got to provide for your daughter,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:25:10

that's what some people were like, well, are you gonna like, just when, like in March and we'd gotten the news, like, well, are you just going to go on leave for six months? I was like, well, no, cause it might not be six months. It could be a year and a half. Uh, I don't know, but like, I also, then what, what am I like? And even he worked, he was able to work with the company he was at. Like they, they had no idea how many hours he was working, which it didn't ultimately matter. He had a role of being that link and being able to make some strategic decisions and understand French culture. And he would get on and I could tell it was like, even like, It was important for him, too, because I could tell when he got on those phone calls, and it was in the U. S., so, like, time zone wise, it worked to his advantage. He could sleep in and then still get in on calls that were later in the day, um, but he was, like, he was the person that, you know, the John that I knew that, you know, was ready to go manage a business and, like, okay, talk about strategy, and he could be someone else, even if it was an hour. He wasn't just a sick person, and I think for me, it wasn't just being the caretaker to a sick person and a toddler. It was like, okay, well, I have these other things going on. Um, and like, we're all, we all have, we have the right to have different sides of us and not just let the suffering and, and not just let the illness be our identity. I mean, some people do let that be it. Um, but it wasn't, I guess, our style or our way of, of doing things. We wanted to still. I mean, scaled back trips, but we still did them. Um, but in so I guess December, the plan typically we'd alternate every two years would go to Christmas in France, Christmas in the United States. So, um, normally this year was Christmas in the United States, but he was not in great shape and he was getting another round of radiation in his back because he started having tumors in the spinal column that were causing an excruciating amount of pain. So we thought, um, in December. It was pretty bad, but he'd had radiation. He's like, okay, we're going to have Christmas together in France. And then I was flying out with my daughter in the 26th, uh, to go to the U S. Um, and he was like, okay, I'll stay at my mom's. It'll be calm that way. And I think he was a bit relieved too, that like, he really put a lot of energy into being there for our daughter, even when it hurt and I think to just let himself heal, um, but I guess while we were gone, uh, and I could kind of, I left and I was like, okay, do I, like, I really struggled because I was like, do I leave or not? Like, he's not in great shape, but I also like, it is.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:27:28

You needed a break.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:27:30

And, uh, I mean, my mother in law has clearly been through it, but she's got very different ways of processing and she's much more in the passive, and I think she's always suffered with depression, never really got treated, and then you have these really crappy things that happen to you, and it just, the weight of being in that house for me is not, like, I don't, it's not a pleasurable place. Like, my husband wants to go there, look, we have my big family house, but I'm like, it's a big family house. Full of unfinished construction projects from when your parents were together, uh, that were never finished. That's just like a parallel for their couple that they never worked on. Like, I have all these memories of, you know, your brother dying here. We just have extra stuff of your guys's that's just like this Uh, it just, there's some bad juju in there

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:28:12

for you.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:28:13

and it's, uh, very much, we were people, we were the ones in charge, like every time we go there, mother is there for us, but like we tell her what to do. Like, she'll never propose. She doesn't want to impose. She's like, I don't know, like, it's a very much like, I think it was just, she's educated that way. Okay. No, you tell me what to do. I don't want to impose or like upset or like, you know, you guys make the choice. Like, that's my way of being polite. And I'm like, sometimes. I don't wanna

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:28:37

Yeah. The weight of the responsibility, right?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:28:39

And like, I, like my mental charge is like out the roof here. Like, and so we would even as he got into this camp, like really laid on, like we were making decisions about things that, I mean, that's a whole nother podcast, but that I was like, why is, why is he managing like all these things for you guys right now when you're like 60 or you're young enough, you're not like 85-year-old, uh, people who can't understand technology. Like, um, so it was. Even to that point. So it's just not a place that I was like, I don't want to spend two weeks here. Like, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:29:11

you were away, could you sense that there was some deterioration going on? You could

Kassie McCleeary: 1:29:16

I think he didn't, I knew that there was people there that if I needed to get back. Like our good friend who's the doctor was there and I was like, okay, if I really need to get back tomorrow, like, um, there are people who will tell me, um, but I know when I talked to him, I was like, okay, are you feeling better at all? And he's like, no, the pain's not going away. And like, they had targeted one tumor in his spinal cord, but they didn't seem that there was another one that grew while he was getting the radiation therapy. And he was on like a.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:29:45

bastard,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:29:46

Oh, my God. Yeah. And like his ribs were hurting and they think that they're like, well, there might be tumors inside the bone that are like literally cracking the bone from the inside. Like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:29:55

Oh my

Kassie McCleeary: 1:29:55

it was just like, and that's, you're just like, this is like, you're, no one should go think you're being tortured.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:30:00

that's awful.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:30:01

and it was just like in sound, like it was super sensitive to sound. And like, if you had cutting with a fork, like because of the brain tumors, it was like, he's like

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:30:09

guy.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:30:10

suit. Like it's, it's not. So we left. And I was like, he like, he's like, yeah, no, my back really hurts. Like I couldn't even cut my own meat today. My mom had to cut it and I was like, okay, this is not good. Um, and then probably like, Oh, like I was there for like 12 days. And then like, I guess like the 1st of January. Like he called and he's like, yeah, we're trying to figure out and he I would call and he's like, yeah, like, okay, I'm really tired. Like, I don't want to talk right now. Um, I was like, we just need a video for like Coco to see you. Um, and he's like, yeah, we're having a discussion because like, I'm a ton of pain. We're going to drive me back to Paris and he didn't want an ambulance. Um, so we had our, like, really good friends of his. Um, Of ours who drove him back over the night and our friend Margot, the doctor who like got a special prescription to give him these pain meds to basically knock him out in the car so he could make it back. Um, and then he went to a hospital that he'd been seeing for pain for about a year and a half, which ironically was the same hospital that I gave birth to our daughter in, um, to maternity and palliative care hospital.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:31:16

both ends of the spectrum.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:31:18

I was like, I didn't want to visit every floor of this building in the same three years. Um, so I, he was already checked in the hospital when I got back and I actually at home, I had a great amount of fun. I was like sick when I got there with a cold, but I think I just, I knew I was like, look, I need to fill up my cup. As much, as much as possible, um, I talk to people like we have this huge family Christmas party. My daughter had a blast and like, um, and I have a ton of cousins who are around my age have kids and like, it's just, I'm like, this is a place where people are understanding of what's going on. But like, if they're not, if I need to sit and cry with them, they'll sit and cry with me. If I need to laugh. And have a fun time, you know, and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:32:00

okay too.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:32:01

and like, just all like giggle at children, like whatever, like that's, and my sister is on the ball with her husband, like, you know what, we're going to have this time to go out. Mimi and K pop are taking care of the kids. We're going to go dancing.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:32:14

they call you? K pop?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:32:15

Mimi and K pop. That's my, that's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:32:17

Nice.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:32:18

name. So Mimi, and then my dad's name is Kevin and he's a. So he saw K pop as in Korean pop and was like, that's a great name for me. And I was like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:32:27

He named himself, I love that.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:32:29

yeah. So, and it just stuck because once we heard his reasoning and I was like, you know, that K pop is a thing, dad. He's like, yeah, I saw that. And I thought it was a good proper name for me. So Mimi and K pop. Um, yeah. So I was like, that's so just stuck immediately. So he's K pop. Um, and it's really cute. K pop. we went

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:32:47

popper.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:32:48

pop out and that's, yeah, so we have, and, um, Anyway, so I had, cause some people afterwards are like, do you, do you regret that you went to the U S and I was like, had I known that he was going to die so quickly after I returned, I probably wouldn't have gone. But at the same time, when like, it was just everyone's sitting in silence and anticipation, already Christmas dinner was like, my husband doesn't want to, like, he wants, If he's struggling, and I think an important thing for people who are injured or handicapped or sick is like letting them maintain their autonomy and dignity for as long as possible. So his back was killing him and a fork fell on the floor and I'm like, do you want me to pick it up? Or do you want to pick it up? Like, I know it hurts for him to pick it up, but like, You know, his mom and his family are like, Oh, we're gonna jump in and do it and just wait for him to like, say what he needed or I'm like, Okay, but, and I'm like, he doesn't like this a be like, it's really hard to experience this next to him and see him in so much pain trying to enjoy Christmas dinner, but like the last thing he wants is for everything to be on him on his illness. So let's try to distract. So maybe I got really good at being like, Put her attention elsewhere, but we're also recognizing that he's really in a lot of pain Um, and that's a lot to kind of carry every time. Uh, so back in the u. s I could kind of just it was uh, it was tiring but it was necessary could just

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:34:07

And I think everybody needs a break. I think everybody needs a break. And by going away and re spooning, re filling your, what did you call it? Re filling your, fill your cup, that was it. I don't want to say bucket because it sounded kind of crude. Um,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:34:22

Nope, I fill up my cup.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:34:25

Because then you're coming back in a better place. And like you say, I've got this kind of now a picture of you guys just sitting, you know, he's not able to eat. How awful for your daughter as well. That's not a Christmas. Whereas you took her and gave her this wonderful family Christmas where she was taken away from all the sadness as well.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:34:39

and that's I think partly as much for me as much and she's like like I said, she's clearly kind of has a success and all the children have but like has a Intuition of something that's happening. So she could just have fun with other kids, have a blast. Um, and then we are coming back and I knew he'd already been checked into the hospital. I didn't have a lot of information, but I was like, do I come back earlier? It's like, no, no, no, no, no, don't. And my birthday is January 4th. So my sister and I celebrated our birthday together and I kind of just like, I'm just going to laugh and have as much fun as possible. And it's kind of like that run where I knew that bad news was coming. And I was like, I just need to Enjoy this as much as possible because I think it's going to be a really, really rough, uh, winter. Um, so we get

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:35:22

think there's something to be said as well for not being afraid of being happy. Like not being afraid to do things that bring you joy. Because in that moment, there's an element of I must be sad. I must be there for him. I must be supporting. And I think there is nothing. No shame and nothing to be not gained from actually finding your own bit of joy filling your cup.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:35:41

I think that's like it's it's That's some people are like, well, how did you make it? Like how did you do all this and like also you're like, I don't like I didn't like what

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:35:50

Put my head down and ran at it.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:35:51

you just I mean kind of just dive in like you choose if you want to do it or you choose if you want to let it It's not easy, I'm not saying, but like, I also like, I don't, like, yeah, like you said, we're allowed to be happy, everyone's allowed to be happy, and even my husband was allowed to be happy despite the pain, and if that was his daughter, and us doing things, and even if it lasted for 25 minutes before he needed some more of the 15 pain meds he was on, like, that was still 15 minutes that was there. Um, So I got

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:36:21

He literally gave it all he got, didn't he? That's what I'm really hearing here.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:36:25

the doctor was like, he's gonna die standing. I'm not physically standing up because he couldn't really anymore, but they're like, he's gonna die. There's no, it's not like just he's not giving up. Um, so we got

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:36:38

what day did he die? Because I do have it in

Kassie McCleeary: 1:36:40

January 16th. Um, so we get back like the eighth, I think some threads. And I'm like, okay, we're going to come to you at the hospital and he's like, uh, I don't, I don't feel really great. Come tomorrow. Um, I was like, okay, but tomorrow is like the latest. Cause I haven't seen you for like 10 days. Our daughter hasn't seen you. Um, it was kind of like, you know, I think, I think they'll feel better tomorrow after the meds start working here. Um, cause the team this weekend was like the new year's team and like, it wasn't the 18th. So, you know, I'm going to wait for things to get better, which is kind of like, he's always in like, But then our, my friend Margo, so the doctor who's following this whole thing, she's like, okay, I don't know what he's told you, but like, things are really bad. Um, Like you didn't need to come back earlier because it was just him sitting around but like this is Like if whether he says to come or not, like you insist on going you need to talk to the doctor like we're he's in an immense amount of pain and we're not like there's there's There's not a solution for this. Um, and so she and she's, she's a general physician who works in a hospital, but she specializes in geriatrics. So she's used to seeing people at the end of life with chronic diseases. Um, and to follow this for one of her young friends who she's known since high school is, Really, really hard. Um, but at least with that, I was like, okay, I've been kind of like in this. No, I wasn't in denial because I knew things were getting bad, but I hadn't had the confirmation of yet how bad they were. So I'd like the next day I went and I talked to the doctor and he was, um, and I like, I mean, I saw john and he was still like, I'm in a lot of pain and like tired, but I could bring, I don't, I didn't bring our daughter right away. I think I talked, there's a psychiatrist, um, psychologist on staff that And I was like, okay, I want to bring her. So I took her to the creche and dropped her off. Then I went to go see him and kind of get the updates on what, what things were happening. Um, and then brought her in with, we went to see the psychologist first and she explained, she's like, okay, sometimes it can be overwhelming. You see lots of tubes, there's lots of noise, like it's a different space. So we're going to talk to your daughter. And then we'll say like, okay, with the hospital, sometimes it happens because they're sick. So she went through that whole sort of explanation. If you want to go in, you can, if you want to leave the room, it's also okay. Um, you know, you tell us. Like, there's, we're not going to force her to stay in the room, she doesn't want to be there. Um, if you want to leave, because there's a, there's a great, I mean, it's a palliative care place, so there's a family room with toys and like a kitchen, so she could go play with the toys and come back. Um, so I'd, I'd talk to the doctor and he was like, okay, we're getting like, and this doctor had, he was also younger and had seen my husband for like a year and a half. So I could tell even for the team taking care of him, they're used to seeing him. This is young patients sometimes, but a lot of older patients and that you could tell that they like, I mean, they even told me that we, you know, we got to know him and like, he was quite, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:39:40

They get invested, don't they? You can see that

Kassie McCleeary: 1:39:41

he's someone,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:39:42

to be invested.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:39:43

and he's someone that we like, really came to appreciate and like, you know, even with his quirks and whatnot. And like, sometimes he'd like have a phone call from work in the middle of a medical meeting and he'd be like, Oh, I got to get this. I'm going to, I'm going to take this. And you're like, what the heck? Like you're in the middle of a serious meeting about your health. And he's like, yeah. I'll be right

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:39:59

in a minute.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:40:00

Um, which he would do that all the time, you know, driving and saying that he would just pick up phone calls in the middle of like conversations. Well, they're calling. And I'm like, well, I'm here. He does to everybody. So it wasn't like, it was just like, okay, so you do that to your doctors too. Um, but it was, um, so he was, I was like, okay, so what's, what's the deal? Where are we at? And it was like, okay, we're trying these from pain meds, but like literally they are the pain specialist of France and they were having trouble trying to find the cocktail of like ketamine, codeine, all of these things that were layered on top of itself to try to get this relief to his back. That was just not happening. So it was over the,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:40:36

it's just thinking what the body is doing to you when all those pain meds won't work. It's like,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:40:41

when they were even like, This is honestly like this amount of pain meds, because they were like, well, if we can stabilize it a little bit, then we could potentially go to another hospital that could do more radiation. But even that they were throwing out that option to him because he needed options. He wanted to know, well, what, what's my, what's my, what's my possibilities? What can we do? But even taking him to go get the scan on the other floor of the hospital was so excruciating that he was like sobbing in pain because it was so hard to just do a scan. So taking him to another. Part of the city was honestly never really an option. Um, but then like every day, so we went with my daughter and she got to see him and he was, you know, kind of later afternoons would kind of felt better and, you know, would eat a little bit. So she came and the first time she went in, she was kind of like, okay, like saw daddy, kind of saw everything. And she was in there for a few minutes to like little like DZ from like kiss on the hand. Uh, and then she's like, okay, time to go. And like, They're like, okay, well, that's like good. She knows she want to leave. We let her leave. And then she played for a bit. And she goes, okay, we go back to see daddy. And she was jumping on his bed. She thought it was so fun to go up and down with like the up and down little, like, make the bed go up, make it go down. Like, woohoo. It's so good. And you could

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:41:50

And he's like, Jesus.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:41:52

and you could tell that he was like, afterwards, it was way more like. that point he was still quite lucid, but you could tell that it was like, energy, like, he got so much out of that, and then she got to see daddy, and um, so I didn't go, I was supposed to go back to work, and I just called my boss and was like, look, things are not great, I don't know when I'm coming back, um, we can figure out what my official status is, but like, so the first week I was supposed to work, it just didn't, Like I don't I was just like not there. There's no official place that I was. I was like, I don't really know what's going on with this. Um, we need to do. And then like the following week, he died on a Tuesday, I believe. And like my boss was like, well, you just go into like, I mean, just basically say you're struggling with, emotional depression, whatever, because your husband

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:42:39

signed off.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:42:40

and it gets signed off as like a sick leave kind of thing. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:42:45

Now you just. You, you did rock it through that then. You just went and then he died on the Tuesday. Now, I'm very guilty of doing this myself.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:42:52

it just, it just gradually sort of got worse, um, every day. And they were like, well, we can try to do, there's still this sort of option of, well, maybe let's do, um, you know, an epidural that we could just numb the bottom half of his body. And we didn't propose it when we first came in. Cause when you propose that, that means that you're not getting up again and you're not leaving, which he wasn't. Ready to accept or hear even if that was and it's not a thing they would typically do for a patient in his situation they're usually in their 70s or 80s and but because he was young and we're hoping to get him Just I guess as like the 11th 12th, it's like Thursday Friday of the first week We're back like just the time that he's aware versus when he's sleeping and Or just, like, has the different doses of meds, and you can tell, like, okay, we finally found something that works for, like, a few hours, and you can see his face is relaxed when he's sleeping, but then other times you can tell it's just, like, tense because he's in pain, um, so then when he was awake, it wasn't, like, long periods of discussion, and then we had a lot of people visiting, but it was also, I was, like, this, and, like, the doctor was, like, if there's people who want to see him, like, they need to come. If you have people abroad who want to see him come,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:44:05

really big statements and conversations

Kassie McCleeary: 1:44:08

cause I was like, okay, like my, like my family lives far away and I knew that my brother in law wanted to come and my sister would like, they would have preferred to see him, but I was there like, no, if people are coming, like tell them to come. So there's other people I reached out to. And so he was getting tired. He's like, I'm not dead yet. Like, why are all these people coming? And I was like, well, you're not John. And they want to see you. They want to see you. Okay. They just want to see how you're doing. And I mean, we had tons of people coming when he first got sick to the hospital. Um, And it was like COVID, so we had limits and we like would constantly like, like they go, why are there eight people in your room? And there was nice courtyards with like roses who would go out, but it was, so we like constantly like had, at least this time we didn't have COVID problems, but it was more of, he would get tired

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:44:51

have to manage their time, don't you? And whilst you want everybody to come and see them, it's you, what's really important is the time he has with you and your daughter now, and you've got, it's trying to manage other people's expectations as well and doing the right thing.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:45:03

it's like, so there'd be periods of time where like in an hour and a half, you'd have like a number of people pass by. And then like later, like I would stay and then my friend that I already spoke of would watch our daughter. Um, Or, yeah, I would say later his best friend, um, like his longtime childhood best friend, uh, Edgar would, you know, stay with him later and they'd chat and it would just be like one person who might stay that late. Um, and like of, and then his mom came back into town as well. So it was, um, But then like, yeah, you get a little bit tired, but then people are coming and like, anyone who did come, they're like, thank you for letting me know. And like, thank you for giving me the opportunity to come. Um, so we decided we'd try the epidural. And for me, it was more like, okay, we're never going to move him to another hospital. Like he's, but if we can do the epidural and at least numb the pain, um, Maybe we can get a few more days. Like this is what we're bargaining for of lucidity that he can chat and spend time with you guys. Um, but he couldn't, we couldn't do it until he was off these blood thinners, which takes five days. So it was like, that's really like, well, why don't we just do this from the beginning? Well, he wasn't ready to hear that. This is the end yet. And even then I was like, okay, I need passwords to stuff like to have you. You said you're preparing things. Where is it like I need so I like literally he napped one time and I took his thumb and put on his phone and Changed his gmail password so that I could go back in later and then reset everything else Not what you want to think about when someone's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:46:40

No, it's not.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:46:41

I was like could you do this and like I know it like you pay all the people in France like I need To let your job known. He's like I'll get to it next week and I was like

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:46:49

There isn't next week.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:46:51

I was like, but I want to just check now because your boss needs to know. And I'd already talked to his boss and his boss was like, they knew this point was coming. They're really sad to hear it. But they're like, we already have a game plan. Like we already, we know that we knew the only reason we had this business in Europe is because of him. So we're like, even, and they were great. And like, just paid him for the whole month and didn't, you know, bother changing statutes. They're just like, whatever. Like we're, we'll send it directly to you. Like, um, but so I was like negotiating with him. I'm like, you stubborn, you stubborn jerk. Like, just let me into your stuff. Like, this is the point where we can let it like, and if we don't need to, then at least it's set up for later time. But, um, we did the epidural and it. He was, it was, um, so would have been the 16th and they got it in, placed it, but he was like moving and fidgeting and grabbing at his leg and the catheter and like clearly not comfortable and our friends. So Margot, she was like, this is like, it didn't work. It didn't work. Something really didn't work. And he's in an immense amount of pain. And this has just made things worse. Um, and that was the 16th. Um. And our daughter, fortunately, we've gotten to see him a couple more times, but the last time she saw him, I think she sensed the things like he was really, would have been the day before he died. Um, he can, he really didn't have any energy. He like, hadn't really eaten the whole weekend besides like a couple of M& Ms. And he just gets so tired that he couldn't eat. And then like, you know, all of us are like, why don't we just give him an IV? And then when the nurses tell you, like, it's just going to extend like the inevitable, like his body

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:48:25

Oh god.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:48:26

If we feed him, it's just going to like drag it on longer. It's okay if he doesn't eat. And like, you're like, Really? Like, can't we just, this is like the minimum. It's the only thing we have. And at that point he'd kind of say a couple of things, but he wasn't, maybe he understood us, but he wasn't really good at expressing things. Cause at that point he had just had so many drugs and a friend of ours is an anesthesiologist and he came to visit.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:48:49

You've had a lot of friends.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:48:51

We have an amazing, and I think that's maybe one of the like shining things is just, we have an amazing amount of friends here who are really great. And helpful people. And he came and he saw all of the medicine that he's like, Ooh, like the fact that he speaks at all and can open his eyes with all of this is actually like quite impressive. Um, but I mean, he saw that and he knew that like weird. In a matter of days, um, but our daughter last time she kind of went in and she kind of just like waved and like Kissed from far away, but you could tell she like didn't want to get in the bed and play and you could tell and he Like it was the end of the day and then I think I don't know That's where you could tell that he just he wanted so bad to still be there and he like Had a couple scoops of yogurt. So that was the last thing he ate. Um, but he hadn't eaten anything for like a week Two days besides, like, two M& Ms or something, because that was all we could kind of get him to do, and that was, um, clearly, like, linked to the fact that he'd just seen her daughter, and he wanted to try to be there. Um, but yeah, the epidural,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:49:53

did he? Never stopped

Kassie McCleeary: 1:49:55

I know, even to the point that I'm like, I kind of wish you had, because we never, I got to say goodbye to him, but he never could really say goodbye to me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:50:03

Because of the medication.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:50:05

Because of the medication, and then when he still could, like he was still like, like I had a business trip planned at the end of January. He's like, it's fine, my mom can come, go, it's fine, don't, don't cancel it because of me. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm not gonna stay, like you're in the hospital, I'm not gonna leave on a business trip. Like, I'm, it's just, I can't, like, things aren't great. And like, if you do get better, then I just missed the business trip, there'll be another one. Like. Doesn't matter how cool the project is, this is fine. And so he was still at that point when he was more elucid, and that was where, like, so the epidural, like, I basically, once we saw that the epidural didn't work, and he was still, like, just super agitated and in pain, um, and they'd proposed, like, at some point, like, we're not there yet, but at some point we were going to ask you, we can sedate him until he dies. But that means you put him to sleep until he naturally dies. And it was a balance, because he clearly wanted as much control of what was going on as possible for as long as possible. Um, But at that point, I was like, we're just, we're doing that, and we know it's gonna be, like, not even 24 hours from now, like, and, like, that's when I messaged his best friend, and I was like, just get here, um, it's,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:51:19

okay. And

Kassie McCleeary: 1:51:21

it's, it's really bad, and I was like, he's, it's not, um, whether it's now, whether it's tonight. Like, we're, we're there. We're at the end. And I messaged another really good friend of mine, and she showed up right away. And we just had, um, well, we just saw, like, um, when you see someone die, you can tell when he, even when he started coming back, when they came back, like, after the, the epidural, like, waking up from that. Um, His breath was just really rickety and they're like telling you the nurses because like this is what they do every day, which again, I'm like, I don't know how you can do this every day. Like, this is the immense amount of respect that I have for people who do this. Um, and I guess if you're doing it for people who are old and it's their time, like it's less or peaceful, perhaps.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:52:12

it's about giving them the dignity and the compassion, isn't it? But it must be heartbreaking for them to see, to see him die and to

Kassie McCleeary: 1:52:19

and then all these young people coming in to see him and like to hear this little girl sprinting down the hallway and knowing that it's one of your patients like and you're seeing this adorable little girl and you know that her dad is dying and it's just like awful um they're coming in they're like okay when like this breathing starts to happen like it's a part of the process of the brain shutting down because you'd have longer and longer gaps in between each breath and it was just slowly throughout the afternoon um That was what was happening, and it was, uh, so I was just kind of waiting with him, and then, like, I don't know, I think he died at like 630, but it was like 530, I don't know, and you could just tell, like, his breath just, like, there was something shifting, and almost, like, his skin just changed, and it almost looked like he was already dead, and it was, like, and there was, I was next to him, and, um, his best friend and a number of other friends showed up, and it was, uh, you could just tell, like, And even, like, we were like, just stop, you can stop, it's okay, we'll be okay, like, you can, there's plenty of people here to take care of us, and it was, still, it was just like, you just stop, this is so awful to watch, like, you're in so much pain, um, and then he passed away, there was a number of us in the room, and then it was, uh, I mean, it's almost surreal because I've been waiting for this moment for a long, in a way, for a long time and it just, like, it's very, I'm gonna hope people don't have to experience it, but like, just to feel like their kind of body, like, just kind of get to this rigid kind of feeling that you can just tell that they're no longer there. Um, and after all of that pain and build up, it's just like, it's just happened.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:54:12

Yeah.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:54:14

And I mean, there was really good friends there. I mean, everyone knew it was going to happen, but it was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:54:21

It's still a shock though, isn't it?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:54:23

kind of a witness. It, it's more of just like afterwards you're like, Oh, like what now? Like, we've got a body. Um, and it's, I mean, it's an, it's an obligation. That's like, I mean, I got to stay and like other people got to go and have time with him and. But it's very, very sort of measured. They're like, afterwards, you have 10 hours in this room. Um, so it would have been like four in the morning that you're allowed to be here. And then we need to like move the body. So they changed and put them into clothes and set them up nicely. And, um, I mean, his best friend, when he got there that afternoon, got all these photos and put them up. Um, another friend brought a bouquet of mimosas, like the flowers. Um, I just feel like weirdly something that I think I'm going to just remember forever, so I think I might just get a tattoo of them because they'd set them in this vase and they're such a simple, pretty flower, but with like the kind of sterile lighting of the hospital and the yellow of the flowers, it just created a sort of warm glow that was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:55:22

You definitely should get a tattoo. Memorial tattoos are a

Kassie McCleeary: 1:55:25

Great. Yeah. So I'm trying to think about it and I need to tell this friend that I'm like, I know you just brought like a, like mimosas or January blooming flower here and that's just what you got, but they're, and they dry up pretty quick. So like to have them beautiful and fuzzy, it's like very short, but it was the first thing I saw when I looked at my head

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:55:41

little bit

Kassie McCleeary: 1:55:42

from my husband's body was this like vase of like little warm flowers, warm colored flowers of just like kind of a bit of sunshine and it was abnormally cold and wintry. Um, That week, so like zero degrees minus two, so it was like really real cold winter and it was just this like beautiful little sort of glowing light of warmth, even in the darkest, coldest of moments. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:56:11

The fact that you were able to even identify that, I think is quite honourable, actually. Um,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:56:16

it came afterwards where I was just kind of like. Resaw it and I was like, why is that like keep coming back to me? It's like a thing that I like and I'm like it's because the first thing I saw when I lifted up my head was that vase of flowers like again is small but like significant moments like that. So it's um And then on his coffin We got white roses and mimosas. So it was um, and I think just a flower that comes in January in the winter when it's cold and you just need some bright sunshine and it's dark and like just this simple, cute, yellow flower. Um, so that was,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:56:59

we do tend to look for, if you, if you're within the right frame of mind, you will see those little glimmers of positivity. And I think that you've kind of held onto that image, I think is really nice. And I, yeah, I want to see this tattoo. I'll show you

Kassie McCleeary: 1:57:12

to find an artist. I've looked it up. I'm like, how do we do it? Cause I don't want it to be like too blacky outlined.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:57:17

is my latest one. That's the WAF, the WAF, that's the WAF bird, see? I've branded myself, in fact one of my guests is coming to near where I live to have the WAF bird tattoo as well, Sarah Swainson, so I'm going to try and make you, like, it's the right passage, you're going to try and encourage you all to get branded.

Kassie McCleeary: 1:57:32

get branded. I have a tattoo that he gave me as a gift that was kind of for our daughter, but it's a tattoo that's on my thigh and a little bit hard to get to or take off my pants and show you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:57:41

I've got one on my thigh, shall we just take our trousers down?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:57:44

Um, but it's like a geometric one that's like a abstraction of photos that I sent of like our daughter on her first birthday with us. So there's like a little triangle and it's my birthday hat. There's a base, there's a half circle and it's his

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:57:56

want to see this, you don't have to take your trousers down

Kassie McCleeary: 1:57:59

like, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:57:59

but could you send me a picture after?

Kassie McCleeary: 1:58:00

I'll send you a photo. Um, I'll send you the photo with the inspiration photos because that's, you'll see. So that was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:58:05

Yeah, I'd love to see

Kassie McCleeary: 1:58:06

while he was alive. So I'll always have. Moses is something that comes, um, I think a little bit more, and it's not even just for him. Like, I don't, it's just like this, just reminder that there's,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:58:16

I've actually got, um, I found a card not that long ago, and I had, um, it's got three little kisses from Ben. I don't know if you can see it, so that's his handwriting on my wrist. three little Chris's. Now, Cassie, I really could genuinely talk to you all day, but unfortunately, I have got a commitment. I have to go and pick my son up from school today. So I'm going to have to call this a cool time, but honestly, I could listen to you for another two hours. You're fascinating. And you've got so much of a story and you sort of hinted that we actually spoke at the beginning. I was like, goodness, you know, five months in. And I said to you, perhaps you come back again in a year because I'd love to see what your life looks like in a year. So I think if you're happy to do that, we'll stay in touch because I think to see that you're very Without trying patronizing you're kind of mature in your grief because at five months I was still very much in the chicken and wine phase. I was still drinking

Kassie McCleeary: 1:59:02

There's a lot more

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:59:03

and vin Um, and I think that you're kind of you sound very mature and very together and I don't know whether that's just who you are or if it's the support you've got around you, but I think that you're going to be all right. I think you guys are going to be all right. And I really would love to check back in with you and see what, what mountains you've climbed and, and what adventures you've had, because I feel like that little girl's in really good hands over there. And it's, it's nice to hear because you, you're doing, you know, we're all doing the best we can with our kids, you know, those of us who have kids. Um, and I know what, uh, What a tough, tough journey this is. And I think that you're incredible to be able to come and tell your story to me. Um, you know, within the first six months of losing John, I'm, I'm, I'm very honored that you did, and I think that you are going to help a lot of people. So, um, so thank you. Thank you for coming on and, um,

Kassie McCleeary: 1:59:49

for creating the opportunity. I think you guys, this podcast is, uh, I listened to a several that I just was like, wanted to slap the people in the face, but I think this one was very real and very, uh, I mean, that's why I reached out and, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:00:02

good. Cause I, you know, facelapping, you know,

Kassie McCleeary: 2:00:05

I don't. I was, I was more laughing because the people were quite honest and like, there's things that you want to say that people don't are like, Like, no, just everything's on the table. People feel the way they

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:00:15

This is quite raw, I think. And I think there is a, the risk is saying of a prt, there is a space here where you can say that the good, the bad, the ugly. And I think we all need that because nobody within this area arena is gonna judge you. Like you can't shock me. You can try, um, and. And anybody, you know, on the periphery, if anybody wants to say anything mean, they just get taken down. Like, you, you don't touch my widows, you know.

Kassie McCleeary: 2:00:38

No, this is, yeah. And I think just, there's some also just very practical things sometimes about like what I still haven't figured out. Like I wear my wedding ring every day. I don't know

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:00:46

Oh, I lost mine in the Turkish Sea, so that's dealt with that problem, uh, at Easter. I know, right? I know. So I'm still pretty gutted about it, but I'm, I, dark humor gets

Kassie McCleeary: 2:00:57

nonetheless, that is a question that gets asked, but you're, anyway, so to have a community where that can be a thing that's not weird or makes

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:01:03

I had mine remodeled and wore them on the other hand, actually, because obviously I've remarried so it was a bit awkward,

Kassie McCleeary: 2:01:08

Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:01:09

I, um, created this beautiful piece of jewellery and I loved it so much and I think that's one of the reasons I was so gutted. But, anyway, we live and learn.

Kassie McCleeary: 2:01:16

Yep. Alright, but I will be very happy to come back on and sort of

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:01:20

Yeah, I think it would be really interesting to kind of see your trajectory and see what happens because I think it will be fascinating. Now, For anybody listening out there that has been affected by Cassie's story today, you can reach out to me. I can pass on messages directly to Cassie or you can just, you know, let us know if you, how you feel about it. Um, thank you for listening. Cassie, for joining me and everybody out there. You take care of yourselves until next time.