Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:04

Hello and a very warm welcome back to Widowed AF. You're here with your host, that's me, Rosie Gill-Moss, and joining me from Glasgow today, I've got Jackie Rees. Welcome, Jackie.

Jackie Rees: 0:14

Hi Rosie

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:16

Thank you ever so much for having the brass tacks to come on here because it does take a certain amount of bravery to sit across from me and tell your story. So I'm always very grateful to people for putting their faith in me to do this. Now, I know the bare bones of your story from your application, because as I've often do. Oh, excuse me. As I always say to my guests, I prefer to hear it directly from you rather than to, to read it. Um, so David, your husband was 46 when he died, um, back in 2022, which actually isn't that long ago. It's about two and a half years, isn't it? That's not that long.

Jackie Rees: 0:51

it's not, it's and it isn't

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:54

Yeah, exactly this exact a lifetime, but no time at all. So I'm going to just get you, Jackie, to tell me a little bit about David. Um, I like, I like to kind of find out how you guys met and what your life was like. I don't want it to just be about his death, which is obviously the primary reason you're here. Um, but just so before we go to do, did you have any children together? No.

Jackie Rees: 1:17

no. We had no kids. Um, it was a, it was a joint decision, um, kind of not to have, um, children. We did have, um, we had a cat, um, who passed away just a few months before David. We'd had them for 10 years. Socks. Um, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:41

Have

Jackie Rees: 1:41

That I'll probably tell you about later.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:44

Oh, please. I've got, I've got cats. I, I, and actually my cat that I've had since university and was, he was a really grumpy kind of part feral cat called Mog and he loved Ben and he died a couple of months after Ben died. But I can just remember at the time feeling absolutely nothing because I was like, it was a cat. Um, however, If any of my cats now died, I'd be devastated. So anyway, enough Cat talk for now, . Uh, so Jackie, tell me, tell me a little bit about you and David. Tell me your love story. Tell me what happened that ultimately led to you being a member of this shitty club that we're in.

Jackie Rees: 2:17

Yep. Sure. Um, so we met, oh, I had to double check. That's, that's pretty bad, doesn't it? But, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:25

I, I won't, I won't cross reference. Don't worry if it's wrong.

Jackie Rees: 2:31

so, uh, I was 20, calculation about 23. We kind of met online, but not really. Um, it wasn't like online dating or anything like that. It was, uh, um, if you remember, uh, the magazine Kerang, um, for Mets, yeah. So we were both kind of rock metal fans and then we posted on the message board.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:58

that's quite cool.

Jackie Rees: 3:00

I know they actually, um, this was mentioned that the way when we got married, but how we met and everybody just burst into laughter. Um, so. And I think just because we were one of the few people who were like from Glasgow area, so kind of got talking and then it turned out they actually, David actually knew some people that I knew from, from where I was from. So, um, he kind of asked me if I wanted a ticket for a gig. Uh, and I said, oh, I couldn't make it actually that that's the case, but I said, oh, don't think that I'm just saying, you know, that's the brush off kind of thing. So after that, we just got chatting and agreed to kind of go on a date. Um, went to the pub, he drove, had to, at the time I lived kind of outside of Glasgow, about 35 minutes away. And then we'd had such a good night, lots of chat, but. I'd missed the train home, so he had to drive me all the way home, which was very, very sweet of him. So yeah, so after that, just kind of started, you know, with a lot in common, and before you know it, I kind of moved myself in to his bachelor

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:09

Starts with a toothbrush.

Jackie Rees: 4:11

Yeah, exactly. Uh, so he had a, he had a, a boy's flat and it's fair to say, um, he was very much, um, loved his music and I can't not mention Star Wars, absolutely massive Star Wars band, like proper. Really could have been on

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:30

proper nerd. Ah.

Jackie Rees: 4:35

geeky stuff too, but probably not quite to the, to the level that he does. So, yeah, so we just kind of started, um, I, you know, getting our life together, you know, getting jobs. He was an IT. I worked in accountancy and tax. That's a fun area, and we actually briefly worked together in the same company, and I got the job after we had been dating, and so quite a lot of people thought that was where we met, and so we overlapped slightly, um, through, through working in the same office for a while, but we weren't, you know, I was on one floor, he was on the other, so we weren't, you know, working and then, you know, coming home together. So yeah, so we just kind of, we had a lot in common. We loved to travel. So we started once, you know, the student loans and everything paid off, it was, um, get a nice holiday each year. So we loved like going to America, New York, absolutely favorite place. We went. three or four years in a row, I think. Um, he, he wasn't so much of a kind of beach holiday kind of person. I would, I, I'd go anywhere. I love traveling. I will go anywhere. But, um, you know, he loves kind of going to the States and, and doing all that kind of stuff. So. Yeah, pretty kind of, no headlines, just a, you know, a nice kind of like holidays and buying stuff and next to the, the odd, you know, drink and dinner and nothing absolutely groundbreaking. Um, we

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:09

No, but a, a really nice life. Like a, like a, inverted commas, a normal, happy life.

Jackie Rees: 6:15

exactly. Um, so we, at this point, we'd been out together for about, we bought our house in 2015, um, still not engaged at this point, and it's quite funny. Yeah, so we, it was weird because I wasn't, it didn't really bother me either, I don't know, I'm an only child, maybe I'm just kind of used to always being, you know, kind of my own, my own person, and then, you know, kind of like, well, we got, we get married, we get married, if we don't, we don't, you know, we've got a house together. And that sort of stuff. So I think people thought, you know, after that was 13 years and there was still no engagement, so, you know, I think his family and my friends and everything probably thought, this is

Rosie Gill-Moss: 7:04

did he propose in the end then? Was it a surprise?

Jackie Rees: 7:09

was, uh, this is not the most romantic of stories, but, um, we were basically, Pretty drunk, eh, in the garden one Easter weekend and we were kind of like talking about stuff and people getting married and it was that sort of, we never did, maybe we should, should we? And it was, and then we were like, yeah, why not? Okay, let's do it. It was literally like that. So the next morning, I remember I got up and I said, um, look, I'll give you an out. You know, if that was just the beer talking, and he was like, no, no, no, no, let's straight into town, pick the ring. So that was 2019. So it was quite, quite a while down the road. I think when I texted some of my friends, the reactions were, I nearly crashed the car, in shock, and it just kind of surprised everybody, I guess. But weirdly enough, 2019 was also the year that David found out about heart condition. Um, so it is a congenital condition. He had what was called a bicuspid aortic valve.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:21

Cool, I wouldn't want to Don't make me repeat that

Jackie Rees: 8:23

No, I can write it, I can send it. Um, so I had never, obviously never, never heard of this. And we found out totally by chance. Um, So he'd had trouble with his shoulder, um, and it was like a frozen shoulder. Been in, uh, physio and it was just not getting any better at all. So he was, he kind of thought, right, I'm going to use my private medical through work and, and get this seen to. So by the time, um, even that moving along, it took a while when he got sent for his, um, like pre op checks. Um, I think one of them must have been an ECG and. About a day or so after he got a phone call, um, from the hospital saying that they saw something a little weird on the ECG, um, did you know, like, was there anything? You know, that they hadn't, he hadn't told them about it and he said no. So they said, well, we would like you to have a few more tests so we can find out what it is. So, when, was sent for like an echocardiogram, so it's like the, you know, the ultrasound of the heart. And, um, I went with him, this was round about April 2019, and he came out of the, the room and was like, Oh, I'm. And I was like, what's wrong? I was just not expecting, you know, maybe something like, oh, you've got to, you know, watch what

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:57

back on the

Jackie Rees: 9:58

to do with cholesterol or something, you know, something. And he said, no, um, he said, apparently I've got a heart defect. And I was like, oh, right. Okay. And he said that I was born with. So we were really quite shocked. Um, obviously the first thing you do is Google what it is. Uh, and I was kind of like, right. Okay. So. My, in layman's terms, you know, of what I can describe it so that you're, you know, the main vows for your heart has usually go. Um, three kind of flaps, I think it's called, um, that make it pump effectively. Um, so if you're bicuspid, you're born with only two. So basically over the years, the heart has to work harder to pump as effectively as everybody else. So at this point, um, he was 43, going to be 44. So we saw the consultant, and he was kind of like, Right, we grade this, so basically what the conditioning causes is something called aortic spinosis, which can affect a lot of people, and it's very common in older people and can happen just through, you know, wear and tear and life. But when it happens in people in, you know, that age group, it's usually caused by the, um, some kind of defect, a genetic thing. So. We saw the consultant and he said, you know, eventually, at some point, you will probably need surgery. So it's, um, heart valve replacement is what needs to be done at some point.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:37

My mum said that, don't you?

Jackie Rees: 11:40

well so has his gran actually, so we wondered if it was maybe came from that side of the family, but I don't think hers was, I think hers was through old age, because she was, she was certainly older by the time that happened, um, but he, he said, you know, we grade it, so at the moment he's in the, like, the lowest grade, so kind of mild or, or whatever, um, so he said, I don't, Don't see any, you know, cause for concern at the moment. What we do is we put them on to screening at this point. So just check ups. And he said, it's usually five years at this point when you're in the lower grade. Um, that's what the, you know, the NHS guidelines are. But obviously you kind of, if you notice any, anything happening in between, then obviously you'd see your GP. So, kind of comforted a bit, I think, by that, you know, that's the consultant talking, you know, you're thinking, well, okay, you're still young, reasonably healthy, this is something that, yeah, maybe it's going to cause problems, you know, further down the line, but it's, you know, It sounds like it can be treated.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:49

yeah, that's what I'm hearing here. I'm hearing it's not brilliant, you know, to know that you've got a problem with your heart. Nobody wants to hear that, but you haven't gone in and been told that it's, you know, stage four cancer, you're told it's the, the least, um, life threatening that it could be at this point. I think, you know, you, you'd probably be feeling at this point, okay, you know, perhaps we'll make some lifestyle choices and we could be looking at something further down the line, but you, you certainly, I wouldn't at this point have been, you know, anticipating being widowed sort of fairly. Quickly.

Jackie Rees: 13:18

absolutely not. It wasn't. Even googling, you know, and obviously, you know, you know what it's like, you end up coming across the worst case scenario.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:26

Oh, I'm always dying.

Jackie Rees: 13:27

Yeah. So, you know, and it did say that it's a dangerous condition, you know, and when it gets to a certain level, as we will then find out. But at this point, you know, as I say, quite comforted that, you know, he's got no problems at the moment, nothing to worry about. And I did remember saying to the consultant five years, it seems quite a big gap. And he's kind of like, well, usually when it's at this, that's the pattern of, you know, obviously it's a guideline, so it can't be everybody will not fit the guideline. But the pattern they see of involvement, you know, the condition evolving. It's kind of over that time period.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:08

Okay, so what then? I mean, there hasn't been five, there wasn't five years between this appointment and him dying, so obviously something happened. So tell me a little bit about that.

Jackie Rees: 14:19

so, um, 20, so we got engaged. We plan to get married in 2020.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:27

Yeah,

Jackie Rees: 14:28

We all know what, yeah, we all know what happened in that year. Yeah, so, um, so that was, um, postponed. So the wedding was postponed for a year. We just had a small wedding with 30 guests, friends and family, and a really nice

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:43

are all the rage, you know. It's such a

Jackie Rees: 14:45

Yeah, we had that really lovely venue in Glasgow called Audenmoor. It's like an old, it used to be an old kind of church, but it's like this, just amazing old fashioned building. So we were, fast forward to 2021, and so kind of get to the, the wedding was in September, Um, so round about kind of July, August, you know, we're writing the, even though it was small, it's still stressful, trying to plan everything. So we're, we're at the kind of planning stage of trying to make sure everything's getting ready. And then I think it was just something, I think he mentioned in passing, you know, he was like, Oh, something, something about my, I've been getting chest pains. So I was like, Oh, and I said, he said,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:30

bloke thing to do, isn't it? To

Jackie Rees: 15:32

Uh, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:32

in chest pains. Yeah.

Jackie Rees: 15:34

I know. And I was like, well, what do you think it is? Do you think it's, he said, I think it's wedding stress, you know, just because he was, he was somebody, he wasn't, um, he wasn't a stress head, but he did get himself kind of worked up sometimes about things and a wedding was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:50

an over thinker,

Jackie Rees: 15:51

Oversinker, absolutely, sums them up. So, I said, um, okay, well, keep an eye on it, and if it keeps happening, you know, you need to speak to the doctor. So, um, got through the wedding fine, and by this point, I think they were, they were still getting the chest pains, they were starting to get a bit worse. So I said, right, you need to phone the GP. And it was again, you know, we weren't really getting face to face, um, appointments

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:21

can't down here, like in Scotland, but

Jackie Rees: 16:24

Well, I have to say, my doctor's surgery isn't too bad. I'm able to get appointments, but I know some of my friends just absolutely can't. So it's not really much different, to be honest, depending where you are. So, eventually, I think the chest pain started to get worse. bad enough that he was like, right, I'm going to have to phone the doctor because again, typical bloke doesn't want to phone the doctor. Um, so the GP referred them to what they call, um, urgent, um, chest pain referral, which out of COVID would normally be, you should be seen within seven days. Um, so obviously it's not, You're present, you know, an actual heart attack, but it's, it's serious enough that you need, um, referral. So she said, I'll be completely honest, it's not seven days at the moment, , it's, um, a piece of st string? So basically she gave him the, I can't remember the name of it, but the spray for angina pain.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:34

yeah,

Jackie Rees: 17:34

that you take when, when it gets kind of that bad. So kind of like, okay, we'll wait until we get an appointment from the doctor and just kind of see how it's going. Progressively, it started to get worse. So it went from just being chest pain to kind of really struggling to, I mean, David was, he was reasonably fit. He wasn't a gym bunny or anything, but you know, he walked quite a lot

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:58

you could walk up the stairs.

Jackie Rees: 18:00

Exactly. Yeah, you know, and he always used to, he worked in a city centre in Glasgow, so he always used to walk and he'd lunge breaks and things like that. So he liked to good walk. So he was starting to like, it was a struggle to walk like up a hill. I was like, that's not right at all. Um, and he was taking the spray and I was kind of like, Oh, you know, should we, you know, why don't we phone the doctor back? No, I've got the appointment. So by this time, the letter came in for the appointment. So this was about. October, November, probably the end by the time he contacted the GP, maybe about September, and then we got the letter through for the appointment in about October, and the date was January for the appointment. And it was a telephone

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:46

looking at the dates, I haven't died, I'm like, oh,

Jackie Rees: 18:49

Yeah, so, and it was a telephone consultation, which I thought was very odd, but anyway, um, so, yeah, so it was getting more noticeable, you know, I, I witnessed it a few times when we were out and I was kind of like, it was starting to get quite, quite nervous and I was saying to myself, this has to be this condition, you know, it's, that was one of the signs that, you know, the first signs of it, or the first symptoms of it getting to a more, um, significantly dangerous level is chest pain on exert, angina type symptoms, chest pain on exertion and, and that sort of thing. So starting to get quite worried. Um, but again, you know, I was kind of like, should we go up to casualty? But again, it's COVID, they don't want you turning up unless you were, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:44

hanging off.

Jackie Rees: 19:45

yeah. So you kind of did what you had to

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:48

sorry, I found myself overtalking you then

Jackie Rees: 19:51

No, no, no.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:53

the sensation that I'm getting here is like the walls are closing in around you and you're aware that he's got this condition that although they've said to you it's very mild at the moment, you, you know, you, Dr. Google has told you that the implications are coming down the road and this, um, you know, we, we all know that the, the impacts of COVID and, and the devastation it had on everyone, on so many people, but, It's this kind of knock on effect, because if, you know, you're saying that he should have been seen within seven days, and this is back in, what, September, and then, I mean, obviously, I know where the story ends, and I will let you tell it, I promise, but I'm just thinking, it just feels like the, you know, it's like the sensation of closing in on you, and not being able to do anything about it, and that must have been really, really frightening.

Jackie Rees: 20:35

that's a really good way to describe that actually. No, no, absolutely. It's, it's really, really accurate. Um, because you feel, you feel helpless, you know, it's kind of, you know, you're, we were coming out. I mean, I suppose by that point, you know, the extreme lockdown was over, but as you see, it's, it was the knock on effect on, on the NHS. The backlog was just really bad. So. Yeah, we read and I think, you know, by this point, so he told his parents, his mum and dad actually live around the corner from us, which is, you know, handy when we need the cats. So I think, you know, we told them and they were kind of like, right, okay, just keep an eye on them sort of thing, as you do. Um, and then. During, so we got to kind of like Christmas holidays, um, I was off during, I think I finished, I was off Christmas and New Year, I think he was maybe working one or two days, um, and he sometimes covered Edinburgh as well as Glasgow, so. One day he had went through to Edinburgh and, you know, he worked in IT, so he was taking his laptop, quite heavy, quite bits of cable or whatever IT people carry about with them, you know, in his bag. And I remember he phoned me and said, the office is dead, there's nobody in, I'm just going to come home, so I'm going to go for the train, will you get me at the station? I So I left, um, I was driving to the station and I phoned him just to make sure that he got the, he said he was gonna get. And so it rang and rang and rang, eh, and then I think it answered on like the very last ring. And he was kinda like, it was like, hello, but it was really quite kind of brain sounding. And I was like, are you alright? And he said, no. Not really. And I was kind of like, right, okay, what's happened? So he said, rushing for the train with his bag, you know, um, from the office to the station, he said, I'd got on the train and I think I blacked out. So I was like, oh shit. So I said, you think you blacked out? They said, well, yeah, because I kind of, I think I've just come to with the phone ringing, so I was like, oh shit, so he was like, oh, it's just probably, you know, not eating something or blood sugar, and I'm like, no, wait a minute. This is probably connected to the, to the condition, you know, if you've actually blacked out during, I'm guessing, exertion or running, you know, for the train with. You know, heavy equipment. So that was maybe like the 27th or 28th of December. So I picked him up, got to the station. He looked terrible. He was like really gray. I wanted to take him out to the hospital, but again, refused. Um, I said, I'll drive you, he said, you can drive me there, I'll just sit in the car, you can't force me to go.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:47

Stubborn old bugger. Oh,

Jackie Rees: 23:48

was, you can't force me to go. I'm like, right, and he says, you're, you know, you're, you're, you're winding me up and making me feel worse. I was like, right, okay, fine,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:58

that's so frustrating because of course he's a grown adult. You can't force him to go in. Excuse me, sorry.

Jackie Rees: 24:03

and I think, I think there's a little bit of denial kind of creeping in at his end. I think he knows this is bad, but he's kind of like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:13

Yeah, I, and the brain is very, very clever, isn't it? They'll put all sorts of, um, scenarios in your head to avoid the one that it might be. And I think men tend to shut down because they are frightened, and they don't want to say they're frightened.

Jackie Rees: 24:25

Yeah, absolutely. I think so. And yeah, he might not want to, to have shown to me that he was scared as well, you know, didn't want me to worry or anybody else to worry. But, um, yeah. But he did, to be fair. And so that was maybe like the 28th. And then, so we had New Year, we went to his sister's house, and I think he did tell his family then that that had happened on that day. So. they were starting to get quite worried too, so in the start of january I went back to work, so did he, and then this Friday, it was like maybe the 5th or 6th of January, I can't remember what the actual date was, was the day he had this telephone call with the hospital. So he's sitting at home waiting to do it, and they were supposed to call at 9am and got to like 10. So I haven't called. He's like, right, I'm going to go into the office, um, and I'll just go into a room if they call. I said, right, okay, fine. So, um, a few, maybe about an hour or so later he phoned me. I have to go out to the hospital. I said, well, that doesn't surprise me because I wasn't going to diagnose you over the telephone. But, um, yeah, so he was sent out to the Glasgow Royal Infirmary. And so we went there. So. At this point, I guess what I'm expecting to happen is them to say, yeah, this has got worse, um, we're now at the point that we might need to intervene, but, you know, come home and take it easy and we'll schedule you in. Because that seemed to be what, what kind of happened with this surgery because one strange thing, um, was that there was a work colleague of mine Um, who actually had the same condition. Um, but he had, um, he had been diagnosed as a child. So he'd always been under the care of a cardiologist. And basically that's what he said. He said throughout his thirties, into his late thirties, they were kind of like, yeah, we're going to intervene now. Oh no, wait a minute. We think it's still too early. Cause there's like a point you want to do it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:40

Okay. And you can't do it that, you can't, I don't know whether it's the case or if I'm making this up, but I'm sure for my mum, they could only do it once. So it was a kind of like, we've

Jackie Rees: 26:50

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:51

of get you as far as possible before we do it.

Jackie Rees: 26:54

that's exactly it. They want it to last as long as possible because the options are either a mechanical valve, which has a lifespan or which lasts longer, but you need to take, um, blood thinners

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:08

Yeah, that's what my mum's got. She takes warfarin. We always kept telling her she had a pig's heart, but she doesn't, but that's a family in joke.

Jackie Rees: 27:15

Yeah. And, and the other option is obviously you can get animal, but they don't last as long, and then someday in their forties, the chances are it's not going to last as long as they would hope. So, yeah, so I thought, okay, that's probably what's going to happen. So about, oh, must have been about two o'clock that afternoon, my phone went, I missed the call as I do because I'm always, my phone's usually on silent and I'm,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:42

Same.

Jackie Rees: 27:43

so, I saw the number and it was like the oh 800 number, and I thought, I think that's the number that comes through when the NHS call you. It's like a set number. So when I Googled it, it said, yeah, greater Glasgow. And Clyde Health NHS Glasgow and I thought, okay, so I phoned his mobile and I was like, and the nurse answered his phone and I was like, okay, um, and she said, oh, I tried to phone you. I said, yeah. And she said, um, we're admitting David and I was like, all right, okay, this is, this is going to sound ridiculous. I could hear him in the background, like. I'm not saying anything.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:25

Was he? He was still being really stubborn.

Jackie Rees: 28:29

Yep Oh my oh I could hear them

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:31

bet the nurses loved it. Loved

Jackie Rees: 28:33

no, he was like, I'm not staying in here over the weekend, you know, just the typical guy. Um, and I was like, oh for God's sake. So, but she, so she was the cardiac nurse. Um, so she came on and she said, um, I spoke to him on the phone that morning. He described the symptoms and I told him to come out immediately. So she says, we've done, um, ECGs, um, I, we got the consultant and to look at it. And he wasn't happy at all with what he saw. And I was like, right, okay, um, so she said he is going to need immediate, um, surgery. The replacement needs to be done as quickly as possible because it has now reached the critical stage. And I was like, but it's only been three years and he was told he was at the opposite, the very non critical.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:25

Hang on a second.

Jackie Rees: 29:26

Exactly. Um, so at this point it was kind of like, right, okay, you're being kept in need to. Pick a bag for you and and that sort of thing, but what made it even more difficult it was. In Glasgow, at this point, there had been another kind of rise in COVID cases, so they actually, the hospitals stopped having visitors again. So I wasn't, I wasn't able to visit him.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:59

Oh my gosh, that, that, that really, um, gets me, that does, because, um, obviously a different story, but when John was in hospital with Covid, that was the most challenging thing, was just not being able to be near him at a time when they needed you. Gosh, I'm really sorry, that's horrible. Did you manage to get in at all? No, no.

Jackie Rees: 30:22

the ironic thing is, I was actually going to, the day he died was the day that I was going to be able to see him for the first time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:31

Oh, my God. The universe is so horrible sometimes. And how quickly did it have, sorry, I'm sort of jumping

Jackie Rees: 30:38

no, no,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:39

I really, this feeling of not being able to be with the person that you love, um, when they, at their darkest moment, and in your darkest moment as well. I, I find that really, really heartbreaking. Um, so he's gone in on sort of the Friday, Saturday, was it? So he's gone into hospital and then, and then what happened from there? Yeah.

Jackie Rees: 30:57

So, um, he ended up actually being in for about two weeks. Um, so, I, when I had spoken to the nurse, I got the impression that they were going to try and do the surgery like that next week. Yeah. Um, so, but what happened, as you say, the kin and universe works against you, there was, you couldn't make up some of the things that happened. So you probably know this from, from your mum's surgery, but when you're getting heart surgery, you have to make sure your teeth are tip top and that you don't have, because the, you know, if there's any problems at all with teeth, the infection goes straight to the heart.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:37

Did you know I didn't know

Jackie Rees: 31:38

Oh, did you not?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:39

no, I didn't know, it was quite a long time ago, my mum had the operation, I think it might be 20 years now, so I, my retention of knowledge, but no, I didn't know that. That's really interesting. At

Jackie Rees: 31:49

yeah. So again, because it had been COVID, we hadn't been able to see a dentist. And he knew that he had, because he'd had this filling that had come out and he was like, you know, putting the temporary filling and things like that in. So, yeah. We had to wait for, I can't remember how many days it was, for them to see the hospital dentist, and they wouldn't let him have the surgery until this was being done. So he came and the dentist said, oh, no, two teeth need to come out. So we're like, right, okay, so this is going to delay the operation even longer, but they, they said, you know, in terms of the risk, it was risky or not to have, it is too risky not to have the teeth taken out.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:31

what point, Jackie, were you going to go in with a pair of pliers and some paracetamol and just be like, I'll

Jackie Rees: 32:35

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:35

this?

Jackie Rees: 32:36

Yeah, I was, well, it almost did get to that point because I think there was like, His, his tooth extractions were cancelled maybe once or twice, well into the next week he gets the teeth out, that's fine. The next thing that happened is that he ended up with some kind of, it was like, they were calling it gout, but it was like basically his knee all went up, like really swollen and hot. Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:07

guy.

Jackie Rees: 33:08

I know, I know. And this is, this is what makes me, one of the things, I mean, obviously really upsetting, but this is one of the, you know, the things I play over in my head a lot is how, just, utterly, I was going to use a really good Scottish word here, but then

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:26

Go on,

Jackie Rees: 33:27

it's called scunnered. Scunnered. Um, so scunnered, it just basically means you're just done. You know, you're just like, I'm sick of this. Um, and I think that's how I felt that he felt, you know, just all the delays, not being able to have any visitors. I think he was moved board about three times, you know, and, you know, the other people in the ward. It was just, I think the whole experience was just horrible. And then it's one of the things, you know, that I, I feel so bad is that that's, I mean, none of us knew that that was his last days at the time, but thinking that's how he spent his last days, you know, when they're not been able to see anyone and, and just being so fed up. And that's really, it's really upsetting.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:17

think also, there's a, again, I'm projecting here, but one of the things I've written down is like feeling like you're not important, because. You've got this heart condition, you've now been told it's really urgent and it's got to be dealt with, but hang on a minute, we've got to do your teeth, that's getting cancelled. It, I suppose you would feel very much like not a priority, which must be quite demoralising, um, in that scenario, because you want to feel like if your life is hanging in the balance, that this NHS that we, you know, and I'm always quite careful not to slag off the NHS,

Jackie Rees: 34:48

No, I know.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:49

the, you know, But there are so many failings within it that it's impossible not to cover it, especially in what I do here, because late diagnosis and cancelled operations, unfortunately, are what brought many people into this club before their time. And I think you, you know, nobody sort of thinks that the world revolves around them, but actually in that time of crisis, when you're on your own, to then be constantly being pushed to the back of the line, that would take its toll on your kind of esteem and your mental health as well. And then adding the additional cruelty of not Being able to even see you and it must have been very lonely for him as well.

Jackie Rees: 35:24

I think so. Um, so we, we FaceTimed each night, um, and, you know, we had quite a few arguments, as you would, because I just, he was so fed up, and, but, you know, I, I let, I let him go, you know, I just let him vent, and I let him, because, you know, I'm, I'm sitting in the comfort of my home. I'm not going to, you know, have a go at him when he's going through what he's going through, and I knew a lot of it was just frustration.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:52

fear. And fear as well. Fear can come out as anger, can't it?

Jackie Rees: 35:57

Um, yeah, so, you know, I think by this point, again, um, so, you know, his family knew and they were obviously concerned, but I think, you know, I think they were still quite, right, okay, this is, you need this, it's a big operation, but they do it all the time on people of all ages. Um, you know, his gran got it when she was in her 30s. I think she was in her seventies. So it's that way that you think, well, you know, he's 46, you know. Sure. He'll be fine. Um, so I had kind of, I think you talk, I dunno, I've heard some of your guests saying this before, that you almost have like a bit of a sixth sense about things and I don't know what it was, but I just started to really get quite uneasy with the whole situation and almost in a way, so I'd been, you know, he was in the hospital for two weeks and I had been in the house myself. And I started to think, what if he doesn't come home? And I know, it was, I think at the time people were just like, oh don't be silly, you know, it's a serious operation, but you know, he's in the best place and he'll be fine, he's fit and strong, but there was just, as time went on and I didn't, yeah. I started to almost, like, feel like I had to start preparing myself for the worst,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:16

Yeah.

Jackie Rees: 37:17

um, and I'm not an overly negative person, so it's, that's not my default, you know, kind of, oh my god, this, the worst is going to happen. I had been, up until that point, I think I'd been fairly, you know, positive about it, but this started creeping in. It was weird.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:35

Yeah. No, I, I can, I can imagine that actually that sort of the positivity as well that you'd have been trying to hold onto around him, around your family, and then. As you're getting closer and closer to the date of the operation, that's when those sort of intrusive worries start to sneak in. Um, and I think you're right. A lot of people, you know, I mean, I, uh, genuinely wished my husband dead on the day that he died, you know, not in any genuine reason, but you know, you better bloody drown. I mean, dealing with three kids on my own. And of course I felt immense shame and guilt for, you know, I don't know why I feel like I can wish people dead in a moment. Obviously I don't have that power. Otherwise, otherwise it'd be like. a stream of dead bodies. No, that's not true. I love everyone. Um, but it's, it's the weird stuff that you say. You know, I said in the school playground, if my husband dropped out tomorrow, I wouldn't know who they'd be paid the electric to. He was already dead. Like it, I think it's so weird when you look back in hindsight and see things. Oh gosh, sorry, Jackie. I've, I've, I've made it all about me again.

Jackie Rees: 38:34

No, no, no,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:34

on.

Jackie Rees: 38:35

no. Um, so once the, the knee flare up, um, had went down, I think what I should probably, I probably didn't mention this at the time as well, when he was admitted, he was actually put on bed rest.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:50

Oh

Jackie Rees: 38:50

So that was, and that was basically because the heart at this point was very precarious. It was very unstable.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:00

See,

Jackie Rees: 39:00

So they just would,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:01

to know that your heart is so unstable that you have to lay in bed. And as much as anything, just being immobilized is really demoralizing. Like, it just is, isn't it? We all know when we've had a flu. Um, but also that must be very scary, the thought that your, your heart that has sustained you your whole life. is so at risk that you can't even get out of bed. Wow.

Jackie Rees: 39:21

Yeah. Um, so he'd had all the tests in the hospital by this point. Um, and they were kinda like, right, okay, so we know what we're dealing with. It was at the, what they call severe stage, which is absolutely medical intervention has to happen immediately. Um, and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:41

God, he took this condition and ran with it, didn't he?

Jackie Rees: 39:44

oh my God, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:45

mucking around.

Jackie Rees: 39:46

I know, I know, I just, I know I said you would be the one that would buck the train.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:52

Yeah.

Jackie Rees: 39:53

Not in a good way, unfortunately. Um, so, yeah, so the only thing that was, there was one more test that was still to be done, and that was, um, the angiogram. So the, the catheter, um, into the, you know, the veins

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:09

that when they inject the dye?

Jackie Rees: 40:10

Yes, so that was not to be done, so we have a hospital in Glasgow called the Golden Jubilee, and it's a specialist in cardiac and stroke hospital, and it's excellent, it's one of the best in the country, and so we're very lucky to have it on our doorstep, and that's where the operation would have been performed. Anyway, so he was to go there, um, so he got moved and he was to go there and get the angiogram and because the Golden Jubilee is like, it's not a private, you know, it's part of NHS, but it's like, it's like its own entity. So it doesn't come under the NHS Glasgow. So it doesn't have a, Uh, no visitors rule. It did allow visitors. So once he was into the hospital, that hospital, that's when I thought I was going to be able to see him. So, um, he got moved on the Monday, the 24th. And, so I was kind of like, an angiogram, okay. It's another test that's probably quite invasive in comparison to everything else. But, you know, I'm sure it'll be fine. Um, so that, so I had, um, spoken just on text that day and he started to, I could really tell by his tone that he was really getting quite concerned at this point. Um, quite that's because he's had conversations with the doctors and they've been kind of quite frank about how Ellie was he's not shared back the, because he probably not wanted to worry so. I said, you know, will I come out and see you? Yeah, yeah, you should be able to come out and see me in the evening. And I said, right, okay. And at this point, we were going to discuss, you know, like, the operation and, you know, have, and I do think we would have had the talk, you know, before the, the heart surgery, because, you know, it's heart surgery, you know, and whilst it's, you know, more often than not successful. There are times it's not. Um, so I think we definitely would have had a, you know, a quite frank conversation, you know, what if this happened? We didn't even get that far. Um, plot twist. Um, so

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:36

It's just the gift that keeps giving, isn't it? It's just horrible. I'm so sorry you went through this.

Jackie Rees: 42:42

I know, so I, and, and it's that weird way, like, as you say, you remember every minute of the moment you find out. So. I was still working from home, I think I was still on the laptop, I was plotting about it, I remember the case was on, it was five o'clock, or ten past five, case on in the background, and my mobile went, and again it was a number I didn't recognize, but it was a 0141, which is the Glasgow code, it's a local number, and I thought, okay, better answer that in case it's something to do with the hospital, and sure enough it was, it was the nurse, and if anybody's ever The call from the hospital, they always sound completely calm, which I guess is what they have to do. She was very calm, but she said, very straight to the point, um, David's went into cardiac arrest. I was like, and they went during the angiogram. And I was like, what? I just, I just think I just kept saying, what? Um, so I was like, right. Okay. So she said, he's been worked on. Um, but. We would suggest you come out now. So I was like, okay. And then I was just kind of stood there like, I don't understand what just happened. So, um, kind of like the adrenaline just suddenly kicks in. Um, at first I think I ran out and left my front door open, which I had to run back

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:24

It wouldn't surprise me. Just the blind panic.

Jackie Rees: 44:28

Yeah, so, as I said, his parents live down the corner, so I think I'd already phoned them actually, and they were like, right, we'll be round. Um, I said, I don't, oh, I can't drive, I can't, and his dad's like, I'll drive, but, I mean, he was, you know, obviously quite worried as well. And I remember, um, we got in the car, and they were like, what did they say? And I said, They said they're working on them, but we need to come out. And then we went, okay, so I sent cardiac arrest and they were kind of like, right, okay. And I said, And I've got quite a few friends that are, you know, doctors and nurses, um, so, but again, just through, you know, you watch TV and you learn things, I said, you do realize what a cardiac arrest is, as opposed to a heart attack, so I had to, I think that was the part, at first, these mum and dad were not, maybe they were kind of like, oh right, wait, so he, you know, his heart stopped, he is, to all intents and purposes, dead at this point. Um. So it was about 20 minute drive to the hospital. It was horrible. It was January. It was dark. Weather was terrible. Traffic was terrible. It was the worst. You know that way. It was about 20

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:41

light.

Jackie Rees: 45:43

It felt like about four hours.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:45

Yeah.

Jackie Rees: 45:46

Um, so we got there and the hospital was empty because there was no visiting really. Um, so we, we went in and, um, they were like, Oh, right. Okay. If you wait here, the nurse will see you in the, the, Relatives room. So I was just like, oh, that's it, they're going to tell us he's dead. I said, you don't get taken to the relatives room, unless The worst has happened. So I just was bluffing this out, you know, like Totally like, so, um, the nurse did come in and at this point he wasn't, um, but he was still being, um, worked on. So we were there for about five hours. Um, so what they were trying to do was get him onto, um, A machine called an ECMO machine, um, which I had never heard of. Um, so it's even more, they only have them in certain hospitals in the uk and luckily we have one in Glasgow because. It's more advanced than a life support machine

Rosie Gill-Moss: 46:52

Right.

Jackie Rees: 46:53

what I've learned and it's, I think they put in quite a lot of COVID patients went on to ECMO because it basically completely supports the heart and the lungs and tries to allow all the organs to function. Can rest

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:08

I'm thinking here, like, if he's in a cardiac arrest for such a long time, there's all the additional things that will be going through your mind of, okay, so even if he survives this, who would be coming home to me? You know, would she be, yeah,

Jackie Rees: 47:21

So, um, yeah, so they were kind of like, we'll, we'll work on them. Um, but they, you know, they checked in maybe twice and, you know, and they're, as you would know, and as you may know, they're, they're very honest. The medical professionals, they don't give you any false hope.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:37

There's no fluff, is there?

Jackie Rees: 47:39

No, but it's the right thing to do, you know, I, because, you know, I was kind of like, just tell me, you know, what, I don't want, you know, 30%, I just, like, is there a chance? Yes, there is a chance he will make it, but it's not a good one. That's basically what they say. So I said, right, okay, I know where I am. at least now I know not to, I've got to expect the worst, you know, I can't, I can't, um, say, oh well, you know, it sounds, you know, like there's a bit of false hope or something like that. So it was very much, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:11

written the word hope down actually because hope is, um, talk a lot about needing hope to survive that it's a really human thing. We need to have hope. But when, I mean, it's a very different circumstances to my, my loss, but it was when the Ben was technically still missing. And, um, I felt that that hope really needed Go, because that would cause me so much more angst in the long term, and, um, to let go of hope is, is really hard, because it feels like you're letting go of believing in them, but also hope is, yes, it's very important, but it can be quite pain, you know, it could be the thing that destroys you if you believe too much that things might be different.

Jackie Rees: 48:50

yeah, exactly. Um, so yeah, we waited and then about 11 o'clock, um, they brought us in and they said they just, um, they didn't actually get, I don't think they got as far as getting him on to the machine because everything else that they had done at this point there was, you know, the blood pressure wasn't coming back up. There was nothing was responding to any of the treatments. Obviously it had been about five hours, you know, since it had happened. So, um, yeah, they, it wasn't even a case of for us to decide, you know, to switch anything off. It didn't even get that far. Um, so they, they called us in to tell us he died, um, just about 11 o'clock. Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:36

So sorry, I'm, again, I'm picturing you and his mum and dad, just having, you know, This horrific piece of news delivered to you and the fact that you will have wanted to support his parents because they've just lost a child, which even at, um, 46, like that's still your child. Right.

Jackie Rees: 49:57

it's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:57

Um, and you've lost your, your husband, your partner, your, you know, the person that you've, built a life with and for it to happen, because when I read your notes, I said, somewhat unexpectedly, and I was like, Oh, I'm interested to know what she means by this. And of course, what it is, is that you knew that there was a health condition, but not one that until it happened that you thought was going to take him from you. And so you've kind of got the, you know, the illness and the sudden death all wrapped up into one traumatic episode.

Jackie Rees: 50:28

yeah. I think that's a really good way of, of, of kind of, you know, describing it because it, it's, it's kind of like I almost had a little bit. I called it like a kind of, it was sudden, but it wasn't completely out the blue. So it wasn't, you know, you hear some people where they don't know the person doesn't know they have a heart condition or, or, you know, and they, you know, out of the blue, they die with no warning at all. And then there's some people. And young widows who that's happened to. So it wasn't like that, you know, it was like we knew he had this condition and then him being, you know, in the hospital and needing the urgent treatment, we knew it was serious. I think we never still expected it to get, you know, we didn't expect that to happen. Not then and not at that point. I think the surgery. probably would have been high risk, given how, you know, unstable his heart was. But, you know, for it to happen before you even got to that part, um, was, was really quite, It was, you know, completely

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:35

must, you can't help but think how much, how high risk would it have been if it had been six months prior as well. That must be, that must be a really, and there's nothing you can do about it. The waiting list, the waiting list, but that, that kind of, if only, if only. And I do hear this time and time again, and John's late wife, Sarah, she had a, um, a genetic, um, condition that, uh, increased her likelihood of having gastric cancers, so bowel cancers, that sort of thing. And then she was misdiagnosed with, um, my God, what's the thing that makes you vomit? The vomiting bug. My

Jackie Rees: 52:08

and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:09

something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Nora-Virus. Thank you. And so she was sent home. And again, you know, he says quite, um, candidly, had she been diagnosed at that point, she might not be in a great state, but she'd be alive. that, what if, and of course we live our lives in what ifs. What if I hadn't take, got Ben to learn to scuba dive on honeymoon? What if he hadn't, what if I'd said don't go today? What if they hadn't changed location of the I think to have kind of the hope that it was going to be quite an easy fix and, you know, he would need recovery and support, but he was going to be okay. And then almost on a, I'm going to turn on a heartbeat, terrible use of choice of words there, I do apologize, but it's all, it all changes. And, um, And just a bit, I, I find myself really kind of picturing you in that, in that hospital room being told that it's all over and I guess because I know how that feels that it, yeah, I'm so sorry. Um, now I may ask you at the beginning whether you had children, which is kind of funny question, but I often ask people because if it's not in their notes, I think it's quite. important part of your story. And I think that often, if you have got children, people are kind of more empathetic in a way, because they know that you have got bereaved children to support. Um,

Jackie Rees: 53:31

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:32

but actually when it's just you two, you're going home to the empty house. Like, my kids, don't get me wrong, they drove me nuts. But I didn't have time to really dwell on what happened to me, I just had to kind of keep fucking going, really. Which is not necessarily always healthy, but I think when it is the two of you, and you've made that choice that you just want it to be the two of you, it's, the loss is really, really profound, and I just wondered if you would mind just sharing a little bit about what, what it was like afterwards, you know, what, how you managed, um, sort of going back home and, and, and the, the endless administration that comes after.

Jackie Rees: 54:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:08

Oh, and actually, sorry, I'm just going to jump in quickly because, I'm sorry, there's, um, The other thing I really wanted to ask you about is you said that just before you were planning to kind of probably have this conversation, and I guess you'd be talking about you know how whether he wanted to be cremated or you know what he wanted. You know I guess to have that conversation that you hope you'll, you hope is unnecessary. Like my mum, I found a letter that she'd written to us before she went to hospital, I've never read it, and she destroyed it afterwards. But Peace. That is, I guess, the luxury, and I'm using inverted commas there, that, that we think people who have a terminal illness, I'm trying not to offend anyone here, but the fact that you can say goodbye, the fact that you can find out their wishes, um, you know, what they, what they want for you in your future, I guess I've always felt a little bit like, if only I'd had that conversation with Ben, um, and I suppose for you to get so close to, being in a position to have that conversation and then not getting a chance. I'm definitely rambling now. I'm going to let you take over.

Jackie Rees: 55:08

No, it's fine. Um, yeah, no, absolutely. So, um, so I'm an only child, um, and, um, I , I actually, so I'd lost my dad. Um, 2016. He died in his early seventies, um, of a heart, different heart condition. Um, and unfortunately my mom, um, my mom was in a care home. At the time she had, um, dementia. So, um, in terms of my side of the family, , it was just me. Um, but David's family, I'm really, really close to them. His mum and daddy's sister, brother-in-Law, um, they're all really supportive. They've been like my family, you know, since, you know, I lost my dad and, and my mom being, I, they've kind of been adoptive parents almost for me, and they still are. And, and I think that's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:00

I'm pleased.

Jackie Rees: 56:01

It's quite a unique situation because I know unfortunately a lot of widows have kind of quite strained relationships with in laws. And I totally understand, you know, the dynamics and everything that can be really hard. But, you know, for me, my story is very different. They've been great. They are my family and, you know, we all supported each other. Um, so I actually stayed. With them, literally, as I said, they're around the corner, so I could come and go between there and my house, but I slept there until the funeral, um, just because I didn't, you know, just

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:38

Don't want to go

Jackie Rees: 56:39

kind of, yeah, I didn't want to go home, I didn't, you know, but, so, and in terms of, you know, absolutely amazing friends, I got a great, great base of friends, um, some of them from school days, some of them newer, but really, really great. great group and they were amazing. You know, they were up

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:01

And you really find out who your friends are, don't you, in a situation like this?

Jackie Rees: 57:05

And the care packages, you know, there was one of my friends, um, she got me like the cook, you know, the, the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:11

Oh, this is what I tell everybody to get,

Jackie Rees: 57:13

delivered and I, oh, I know, I was like, that is so thoughtful. It was just amazing. It was so, it was just exactly what

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:20

no planning, no prep, you know that you've, I actually buy them now, or I've Charlie Bigham ones, because I'm really crap. By the time the kids are fed, I will just have something toast or some crackers. And by having these, I know at least I'm having one proper meal. And, um, yeah, I think, Whoever sent you those cook meals, well done. Well done,

Jackie Rees: 57:38

yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I mean, in terms of support network, I can't fault it. And again, I know that's not everybody's experience, but, um, I do feel lucky in a way that, you know, that I had that, you know, from friends and, and David's family. Um, my works were pretty good as well. You know, there was no, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:59

you there. I think the fact that you had so much support probably speaks volumes about you. So you said you feel lucky, but if people, if you kind of get what you put out into the universe, and I don't mean your husband dying on you, that's just chance. sorry, um, and, but the fact that people were so willing to help and supportive of you, that's not luck. That's, that's because of who you are. I just wanted to get that in there. As you

Jackie Rees: 58:22

I like, yeah, yeah, exactly. I hope that's true. And, and, you know, it's not, you know, it was, I'm the first of, you know, my friends that this has happened to. Of course I am. You know how, you know, being widowed in your early forties, isn't, isn't normal.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:37

very alienating, isn't it?

Jackie Rees: 58:39

um, they were all, they were all great. Um, and yeah, so, you know, my work were pretty good. You know, they gave me the time that I needed. I didn't feel forced to come back. If anything, I reached out to them. It was kinda like I need to start a bit of routine, you know, bit that normality. So, um, yeah, I think, you know, it does. The days do, you know, they pass in a blur and I remember thinking, this is a weird thing that, that I had thought about before, but I suppose, you know, people think about these things as, as you were saying about,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:16

Willing my husband dead from the bath.

Jackie Rees: 59:18

so I was kind of the same, but it was, it wasn't so much about the practical, it was just more about like, what would I do? You know, would I be, would I just fall to pieces completely? Would I just be, you know, that's it. Jackie.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:32

what did you expect? What would you have expected to happen?

Jackie Rees: 59:38

I didn't expect, I didn't expect the reaction that I had actually, um, I think I was stronger than I thought I would have been, um, and I know a lot

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:50

just a really shit way to test it, isn't it?

Jackie Rees: 59:52

Yeah, and a lot of it is kind of, you know, it's, you know, fight or flight, you've got to do it. But, you know, I think once in the longer term, there's a lot of, um, self kind of motivation or, you know, you have to want, I think you have to want to be okay. And you have to want to, to get through it as well. It won't just come naturally,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:21

Yeah,

Jackie Rees: 1:00:21

it's, it's something that I think you have to work on.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:25

Yeah, it's, it's very much a choice. And everybody that comes on this podcast has made that choice because otherwise you wouldn't be here. And it's because I noticed, obviously, you know, the amount of people I spoke to now, I do notice that there's a kind of thread of similarity that runs through most people's stories, you know, however, their partner died. And I think this kind of choice to keep going is, it's a really difficult one. And I, I personally, if you'd asked me, I would have said, I'd just I'd crumble. I'd become an alcoholic. I mean, yes, yes, a little yes. Also, I I remember thinking I've just got to get up and put my feet on the floor and face whatever comes. Yes, of course, I'd like to pull the duvet over my head with a bottle of gin. Yeah, I'd love to, but essentially, I can't. Um, and I think that, you know, it's, I'm reluctant to tell people that they're really strong and resilient because you kind of get a bit sick of being told that because you didn't have a choice around it. Uh. I was really surprised how I survived and I wasn't my best self for the first year. You know, believe me, all that kind of the chicken and wine phase that comes to an end. And then you start to make the choices that will define the rest of your life. And I, you know, it's a monumental loss for me, for my children, for Ben's family, for my family. But I feel very strongly that particularly for my kids, that they, it's not the thing that defines who they are. It's a terrible thing that happened to them. And yes, I am a widow. I, you know, I've sort of. Made myself a professional widow in this sense, but it isn't the only part of me. Um, and I think when you get stuck into that mentality that that awful thing has happened, therefore my life is ruined, it can become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Jackie Rees: 1:02:02

absolutely. And, and you, you use the phrase there that I actually, one of the first things I said to my friends is I don't want this to define me, you know, I guess I live, I live in the outskirts of Glasgow, kind of really in a little bit of a village and I'm like, I don't want to be known as the village widow, the young village

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:20

is exactly it. Yeah.

Jackie Rees: 1:02:22

Although very strangely enough, um, so I know you've mentioned this before with other people, so I joined WEI, I think probably everybody does, at some point.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:31

It's a good starting point, isn't it? For sure.

Jackie Rees: 1:02:34

Yeah, so luckily enough when I, when I, luckily when I joined there was a meetup for the local group very near to me actually. So even though it was only maybe about six weeks, I went and I think quite a lot of people were really shocked when I said, you know, they were like, oh, and I think it was about five or six weeks ago and they were like, oh my god. But, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:57

You didn't meet Elizabeth Dixon, did you, by any chance?

Jackie Rees: 1:03:00

no, I didn't, but I did meet people. So I've got one of a really good friends now, um, so it turned out, so the girl, her name's Marie, she was the Glasgow coordinator for the area at the time, and she was the first person there moving in, sat down, and I said where I was from, this village, and she was like, Oh my! So it turns out,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:24

No way.

Jackie Rees: 1:03:25

she lives about, Three minutes walk from me. Um, and she'd lost her husband, um, about six years ago to, to cancer. And, um, we're, we're great friends now. We're really good friends.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:38

Now you're the two young widows in the village.

Jackie Rees: 1:03:40

exactly. And there's actually another man, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:42

numbers.

Jackie Rees: 1:03:43

who's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:44

Oh, you're just recruiting them now.

Jackie Rees: 1:03:48

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, we always say it, it shipped the way we had to meet, but we are really glad that we did. Can I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:55

Yeah, some of the, some of the most incredible human beings I've ever met have been through my grief. I met my husband, the alive one. Um, and you know, Luli, who started the podcast with me, I'd be, she's more like a sister to me, you know, we, we kind of, we're like a big blended family and. I wish I'd met them under different circumstances. Well, I probably wouldn't have met John. That's very complicated. We won't dwell on

Jackie Rees: 1:04:16

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:16

Um, but it's, just gloss over that bit. But it's, yeah, it, because of the people that have, you said, you said here that Maria is the coordinator. So what she's done is she's, turned her trauma into doing something good and reaching out into the community. And just by default, I kind of think they're going to be a good person. It's like people who go sea swimming, you know, these ladies that jump in the sea. I always think if you start, if you want to get back out there, join something like that, because those people have chosen to go in cold water to make themselves feel better. There's going to be some good running through them, right?

Jackie Rees: 1:04:47

Absolutely.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:47

this because I ice bath.

Jackie Rees: 1:04:49

Oh, do you? I did say to my friends, actually, we should do the cold water swimming and they all just went no.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:56

I'll do it with you remotely. I don't know if I can get to Glasgow, but if we set up a FaceTime, I'll

Jackie Rees: 1:05:01

The water would be absolutely freezing up

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:03

it bloody would. I bet it bloody would. Yeah. And have you stayed in the same, same house? I don't know why I said house like that. Hills?

Jackie Rees: 1:05:12

yeah, yeah, I did. It was, I know, again, some people, you know, they want that fresh start. But for me, I love our house. And we had just basically. Almost finished. So we moved in in 2015 and it didn't really need, massively need anything done, but we just chipped away at each room, you know, getting, making it ours. So, you know, we kind of got to that point where we're really happy with the house and the last thing I wanted to do was, was leave it. You know, I love that. I love where I live. there's good, it's a happy, you know, there's happy memories here.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:46

And he didn't die in the house, which I think that can also mean that people don't want to live there. I, I was similar. I, my, our house was, it wasn't our forever home. It was like a one that we bought to renovate and then to be able to afford our forever home. So I think for me, it, had it been the next house, it would have been a lot harder. Um, but I mean, as it happened, I met, I, I decided to stay put and, you know, put the money that I would have spent on, um, on, on moving into doing up the house. And then obviously John and I met and, and we both, and we decided fresh start, you know, both sell our houses and buy one together. But it is a very, very personal thing and there is no wrong or right is there. It's entirely what feels right for you.

Jackie Rees: 1:06:25

exactly.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:26

So what does, what does life look like for you now, Jackie, what, what's going on for you?

Jackie Rees: 1:06:32

Um, yeah, it's alright, I think, you know. I, as you say, there was definitely, you know, I'm not going to say there wasn't a chicken and wine phase, because of course there was, you know, you don't just skate from the trauma straight

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:46

No. And if you do, there's something going on

Jackie Rees: 1:06:48

Yeah, exactly, that's well adjusted. But yeah, it was, um, you know, I did, was quite conscious of not letting myself, you know, and again, you know, it's Doctor, you know, I do take some, some medications to help with, you know, the anxiety and things and I'm, I'm not, I'm not afraid, you know, of, of that, you know, it's what you need, you know, to, to help. It's there for a reason. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, I just, I had been lucky, again, everything about, you know, having the friends group, we were still really, you know, a good group of friends that we were still quite active socially together with or without partners. Um, so, you know, I think it didn't You know, I've kinda, sometimes I guess it can feel like if, if your friend group is just, you know, friends and partners and then you know, you go, one of them dies and it, they all either kind of like, don't, don't know what to say around you or, so it's never really been like that. You know, my friends are my friends and we're, we are all still, you know, we would always still go out and various, you know, social events, birthdays, Christmas, that sort of thing. So. And two of my, my really close friends from when I was younger, we go on holidays. So they're, you know, they're both married and one's got kids, but you know, nothing

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:15

bet she's first in the line to book those flights, Jackie. I'm like, oh, my friend's husband has died. I'm going to have to have a week away from the kids. Sorry.

Jackie Rees: 1:08:22

Yeah. So we did, I went to Ibiza

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:25

did you?

Jackie Rees: 1:08:26

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:27

Did you? Did you have a great time?

Jackie Rees: 1:08:29

I loved

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:30

been.

Jackie Rees: 1:08:31

Well, neither

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:31

I was really,

Jackie Rees: 1:08:33

neither had I. It was great. Go.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:35

I think me and John might go, we might just go and be sort of, you know, sit in the corner, you know, watching the sunset. I don't think there'll be any night clubbing involved. So actually, um, it just, you say your love of rock and metal music, because, um, John is taking me to see, well, I'm taking him because it's his birthday, but it's at his insistency Limp Bizkit, and,

Jackie Rees: 1:08:53

Oh yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:53

he's trying to persuade me to see Slipknot. I'm like

Jackie Rees: 1:08:56

Oh

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:57

I like, I like country music, so I'm, I'm being indoctrinated slightly. I've actually got a Death Leopard t shirt on as well, um, mainly because I liked the, well,

Jackie Rees: 1:09:06

One biscuit kind of ease you into do it in that

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:11

really not sure about Slipknot. I'm, I'm, you know, this, as Meatloaf said, I'll do a lot of things for love, but I don't know if that's one of them. But, you know, who knows? I, I, I'll kind of see any live music really, in fact. I'm taking my youngest to see Kylie in Hyde Park next month,

Jackie Rees: 1:09:25

Oh, nice.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:26

Kylie was my first concert. My parents surprised

Jackie Rees: 1:09:29

Oh,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:29

and, um, about 10. So I'm taking my sixth child. But anyway, I digress, but Jackie, that's been really, really lovely to talk to you today. You've got a really kind of, and I, again, I don't want to sound patronizing, but like a really positive mindset because you've got, yes, you could be saying it's so unfair, poor me, why me? And I'm sure that you do from time to time. But actually. What you're doing is you're continuing to live a full and colorful life instead of this very 2 D, you know, I'm a widow now, I must shroud myself and not go on holiday, you know. I'm funny, actually John went to Ibiza the year after, with the year of Sarah dying. He was, he said, he's just gonna say yes to stuff and like some proper lads, lads, lads invited him and he's so funny, he's there with like these muscle Marys on the beach and stuff. But he said, just, you know, what's the worst that can happen? You have a horrible time. The worst things happened, right? You've got to try and push the boundaries a little

Jackie Rees: 1:10:22

I think, I think that's a great way to look at it. And as you say, it's, um, you know, I just, if it's something that sounds reasonably good fun, I'm like, yeah, I'm in, you know, why not?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:34

at saying no to stuff you don't want to do, I think, because you're like, no, I don't want to do that. Life's short. This is something I'm learning is this. Yeah, it's, no, it's, it's a valid, because I will over explain everything, even my counsellor's like, why do you feel the need to explain this? Like, oh, have you met me? People pleaser. But anyway, I am going to let you go, because I feel that, um, I've probably, I've probably rabbited on as much as I,

Jackie Rees: 1:10:55

probably did too, sorry,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:56

no, not at all. You, no. You were really, really eloquent and really interesting. And I, I've made as always on my pages of notes and I will, um, you will hear from us. Obviously, you'll get a little, your little token in the post. Um, and I, I know it's an awfully long way, but if we could persuade you to Kent, to Woodstock, we'd love to see you. Um, otherwise I, at some point our parts may cross. You never know. I keep just. bumping into widows. I saw a couple over the weekend and the, the unexpected joy of this podcast has been the people that I get to meet and I'm, I wouldn't exist without you guys coming on. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you for coming on and bearing your soul. You take care.

Jackie Rees: 1:11:34

It's been lovely. Thank you, Rosie. I really, I really find it quite cathartic.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:11:38

No one ever wants to say they enjoyed it.

Jackie Rees: 1:11:40

Yeah. No, it's good. I actually did worry I would forget half of everything that

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:11:46

oh God, And afterwards, you'll probably be like, Oh, I didn't mention that. I didn't mention this. But the thing is, you can't condense 20 years of loving somebody into an hour and a half of interview. So, for anybody else who is listening out there, thank you for listening to us. And if you've got any questions around Jackie's and I can pass them on. Um, but for now, from the bottom of our broken hearts, lots of love to everybody out there, and keep on keeping on.