Hello, and a very warm welcome back to Widowed AF. You're here with your host, that's me, Rosie Gilmoss, and joining me from Surrey, I believe, it's Julie Condie. Hi, Judy. Hi, nice to meet you. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much for coming on to talk to me today. Now, we're going to talk, obviously, about the death of your husband, because clue's in the name of the show, right? And for our listeners, I am referring to a Richard and Judy, but it's not that Richard and Judy. So, your husband Richard, he died a year ago last week, so you're still fairly, fairly kind of fresh into the weeds here of widowhood, aren't you? Yes, um, I am. It's been a long year and a short year in equal measures. Um, the anniversary I consider to be Easter, actually, although Easter floats because of the dates. Um, Easter last year was horrendous and so Easter is the one that hurts. The actual anniversary is, um, is really just a date that we sort of raise a glass on. Um, so next year it'll be, you know, a month later. It was weird, but Easter, the word Easter in my head is just awful because every four days, every one of those four days was horrendous. And he died actually two days after Easter last year, which of course is two weeks difference. Um, weird time of year anyway, because everything sort of goes on hold for four days, everything. Yes. Well, and, and, um, although this isn't about this, I lost my mum at Christmas before Richard. So three months before Richard, I lost my mother. So she, she, Ruined Christmas and he ruined Easter, basically. Selfish of them. Well, my husband Ben died the day after Mother's Day. And, um, I've not quite forgiven him for that either, if I'm honest. no. They, they sting more than the dates. It's funnily, it's when it's an occasion like that everybody else is celebrating, talking about. it's our eldest son's birthday tomorrow. Um, the date of recording today is His birthday tomorrow and I've been a little bit off all week and it's only when I went to bed last night I thought, yeah, like the body keeps score. This is, I'm thinking back to that, you know, how happy and excited we were to be having our first baby. But anyway, I digress. So Judy, tell me a little bit about your, your husband Richard. Tell me how you met, tell me, as I said to you just before I hit record, you know, staying married for 38 years is quite, quite the achievement these days. So talk to me a little bit about. Tell me a little bit about your love story before we get to the, the grim bit. the, the, the love story wasn't a love story to start with. It was a, um, childhood story. We, my parents and his parents all knew each other before they were married. So we all grew up to, not together in a close, um, knit, um, way, but we, we all knew each other. Um, and, um, Our parents, our fathers both played cricket, so they were both members of the cricket club, and our mothers did all the dutiful chores in the, behind the scenes, and so we grew up as children playing up there, um, with, he had five siblings, I had two, and we just were part of the children's that were up there. So I knew of these, um, in my view, these great big five big brothers, I was probably five and he was eight or ten, um, but in my little have six boys? There was five boys and a girl. That's the same as my, my husband, you know. He was the five boys, one girl, yeah. So we were all just kids together. So the name, the surname Condi was in my make up. Um, but we weren't close friends. We were, in fact, I was terrified of them all because they used to tease me because they were tall and big boys and I thought they were, you know, frightening. But, um, So we've known each other all our lives, we knew each other all our lives, and then, uh, our lives went different ways, and we went to, Richard went to Brazil, because he, his father worked over there for, when he was in oil, and his father worked over there for a few years. So he went away as a teenager, went to university, and so forth. Um, uh, when he came back, he was still local, and my father had just started a sports ground business, and took Richard on as a, out of university. Okay. to work for him as a groundsman. And I was working away up in Suffolk. I used to work with racehorses all my life, which I loved. Um, but my first job was in Suffolk, but it was a seasonal job. So I used to come back in the summer, which was obviously the height of the grass cutting season. So my dad's employed me, um, to work in the summer. Um, and my, my working partner was Richard. So we were sort of thrown together, um, then, and of course, got together very quickly. I was 18, he was 21, and we spent a lot of time working together, a lot of time in the car together and, um, thoroughly enjoyed those days. Absolutely loved it. We, our work clothes were sort of shorts and t shirts and we spent all the days in the sun and, um, a lot of the evenings in the pub and, and we just spent all our days together and, um, which was idyllic and in my memory, of course, the sun always shone and, and I was very lucky, very happy. Um, to mind as you're describing that is, is idyllic. I can almost feel the sun on your skin. It sounds we worked outside and, and of course we were both young and pencil thin and we just wore these tiny little shorts and t shirts and didn't realize how lucky we were. Not a care in the world, right? So, um, So from then on we worked together in pretty much every job we did. Um, I worked, I had the horses I went back to the race horses, but it was all intermittent and then we'd move on to another job and so on. And we worked together up until the very end. We, the last 15 years we spent, we were both self employed. And then it, we got Richard got to 50 and I just thought, you know, we've got no hope. insurance. We've got no savings. We'd had lots of money problems, but they were all solved. Bringing up three children. Um, and I, and he was offered a job at a local nursing home as a estates manager, beautiful home, uh, 15 acres. So he took on the grounds and the maintenance contracts. And he was very, very fortunate. And I joined. Shortly after as my racing days, but obviously I couldn't keep it up. I wasn't fit. I wasn't young and I wasn't brave So I went to work there for three months Swearing I would not I was just standing in and 15 years later. I've only just left So it was an absolutely idyllic job and we were both extremely fortunate to be caught up in the system of being able to, you know, have pensions and savings and get ourselves back on course after years of being self employed. So, so yes, so we spent all our, all our, pretty much all our working lives together, which was, which was fantastic. Uh, loss at work once I left work, or rather, once he died, I stayed on for three months, but I couldn't work without him because he was such a part of the fixtures. Um, and everybody loved him, and there's a hundred odd staff, and of course, people were coming to me wanting sympathy because they were his, he was their friend, and I couldn't really handle all of that, so I took early retirement, um, two days before I went traveling. Mm hmm. So I'm, I'm a bit of an old hardened hack at this now. And as you were talking then I could feel my Oh, he's getting a little moist. And, um, I hate that word. Sorry for, sorry for broadcasting that into people's ears. Um, because you obviously just enjoyed each other's company so much, because there are not many people that live together, work together, raise children together, and are still really, really happy in each other's company. Um, I, I often have to refer this back to my own experience, since I feel I'm making it about me, but Ben, Ben and I spent a lot of time together. He had his own business and he would work abroad a week, a month, and they'd be around a lot. Now I'm so grateful for that because we were so close and he got so much time with our three children, but Of course, when you lose them, it's, it's, it's huge. And I know that anybody be losing their partner is huge, but I often think, you know, if he'd worked up in the city and was coming home after the kids are in bed and you're spending, then it would have been a different type of loss. But I felt quite, um, I felt sad actually listening to that because that's there is also the other the other realistic point is it's not all roses. Um, because you're working together, you get on each other's nerves. Um, he was, I'm glad to hear you were human. not a human. He was not a, That was nice. not a human. He was a robot. He was not a homebod. He wasn't a homebody. never quite got used to, um, he never got used to being married. He was not, he was not, he was just wasn't a all flowers and roses person by any means. He had his own, um, interests, mainly the sports club. He spent a lot of time up there, not just socializing, but mending. He was a doer. He was a mender and a fixer and a organizer and a fundraiser. And, you know, he did it. His life was up at the cricket club. So we weren't joined at the hip by any means. I had my horses. I had my friends. We were very, um, we had our own lives. We certainly weren't joined at the hip. Um, but. I think because we worked together, if he was out all evening, then that was actually fine, because we'd seen each other during the day. Um, rate that the children, the children, we had to, we were together for six years before we got married, after much persuasion, because that worked for me. Um, and so we were together all the time, we really may as well get married. Um, And then we had, uh, my daughter three years after that, and we had three children in three years. We had three, under three at one point, which is a bit, I know, it's a bit silly, really. But I also wanted to get on with it. I thought, I don't want, you know, I don't, I love doing this, but I also want to get this There is something to be said for that, isn't there? Because I had a two year gap between my 40s and then I wasn't going to have any more. I had quite a traumatic birth with my second. And, um, I will say this to his face, he won't mind, he was quite challenging. And then there was a five year gap. with my next one, because obviously I then ticked it, you know, realized the clock was ticking, um, and I have to say, having got them both to school age and then going back into the sleepless nights and nappies was really No. That's what I thought. I had one and I thought, Blimey, if I'm going to do this again, let's just get on with it. So, um, I wanted to get back to some sort of real life. I didn't want the baby stage forever and he wasn't, you know, he was, he was great. I mean, continually supporting and incredibly loyal and loving. But, um, that, you know, babies were my job, really. Um, and looking after the creating club was his job. And I think having said that, I think most of the house. jobs for mine as well, so I seem to have got the short straw. it sounds about right. It sounds about right. I'm going to just have to tell you as well again. Sorry, I told you I might interrupt a bit. Um, my eldest son is called Monty and Uh, it's because, he's not named after Monty Penesar, but my husband, Ben, was a big cricket There we go, And we were in the car and Monty Penesar was on the radio and I was like, Monty, we're not considered that. So there you go, there's a cricket go. Well, that's, that's, yes, it was lovely. So we had, um, the three, uh, kids and they're all now in their mid thirties, all married with, with young families. So I'm very lucky. Um, apart from my daughter is in Australia, which is, uh, certainly not unlucky, but it's a shame that she's not as close as she could be. But then I think, um, So many families these days do have, um, traveling children that end up, you know, I'm going backpacking for a year and he went 18 months ago. And then my daughter, this is her, this is her. She said, I'm going backpacking I thought you were going backpacking, which I thought was a bit enthusiastic. did that. I've just come back from that. But, um, you know, so she was one of those ones that went away at 18 and never came back, fell in love and so forth. So, um, Um, now I'm very lucky to have the three, the three children, they've been tremendously supportive. So basically that's, that was our lives. We did different jobs. We, we always remained local. Um, and, uh, as I said, the last 15 years was, was the, the best and the most secure job that we had. And, um, probably the most fun in the, in the sense that because we had security, when you're doing yourself employed and it's all dependent on weather and it's just cash, you know, money hand to mouth. Um, So it gave us a sense of, um, security, but also ironically, and thankfully the eight years that Richard had cancer were while we were obviously working at the nursing home. So we had the, um, luck, honestly, luck of being so looked after and without losing money, obviously without any penalty for the time that he had to take off. And ironically, we, or luckily again, we lived three minutes drive from the Royal Marsden, literally in Sutton. So all the treatment he had was, was on our doorstep. I mean, that was the biggest. tick in the box, um, of everything. Um, so, yeah, incredibly lucky to be in that position and looked after by the home. I can't, I can't fault it. And at the very end, we actually, they actually moved Richard in when he, he was working there until three weeks before he died. Full time. Um, And, and then at the very end, the jaundice hit and he was, he was given, um, days to live. And they moved him into the, they offered us a free place in the home for both of us, a room each for the final days. Well, um, because it was a hospice, but obviously elderly people, but it had the hospice, um, facilities. really, that's really kind, they moved us in there so that we could spend the last week together when all the family came and my daughter made it over from Australia. And it was just absolutely, I was very, set me off. Sorry, I'm a lucky, I'm a lucky widow. I mean, I know, you know, yes, widows is awful, but we had time together and we had, um, a very lucky and peaceful ending, And that kindness by, by kindness. Yeah. Pure kindness. So I've just got um, a few questions that I've jotted down just to ask you as I was listening there. So firstly, I mean, I wondered if I could just ask you about um, Richard's diagnosis, because that is really when your axis shifts, isn't it? It's uh, the death, the death is obviously enormous, but finding out that somebody you love has cancer is, awful. Mm. And you said that he'd had cancer for eight years, so It was eight years ago. Eight, well, eight years up, eight years, uh, until he died. so a prolonged deal. And so just tell me a little bit about this. Tell me a little bit about the diagnosis and what prompted him to go and get, get checked. Hmm. by, um, he was colorectal cancer, and he had, uh, her head bleeding, which he kept to himself. He didn't, he was a very stoic person. Brave man, but not, uh, didn't keep it to himself in a silly way. He didn't, he's not detrimental to himself, but he just didn't, he wasn't a chatterbox. He didn't feel the need to talk about things unless there was a very good reason to talk about things. He would deal with it quite happily. Um, So, yes, bleeding took him to the doctor, scans, etc. They found a tumour in his bowel and which they removed. And I may always remember this because, you know, we had nothing to do with cancer up until then. So all, all the words and terminology were alien. So they remember they came back from the operation and said, yep, that's wonderful, very successful. We've got the tumour out. Um, right. That's 80 percent, um, uh, success or something. And we're both not really listening. And we both got home and went. What happened to the other 20%? I don't understand, they seemed so happy. And, of course, as time went on, we realised that there's a risk of spread. And, although the operation was successful, it had by then spread to his liver. But not into his liver. It wasn't liver cancer, it was on the liver. So it was a, the liver was the host. So the liver, right up until the last few days, was, was fine. The tumours strangled the liver. Oh my God. I don't know. I don't think I've heard no, I new one on me. So he had, I think, over the first four years, he had two major liver, liver resections. He had, keyhole, he had drugs, he had everything going. Um, and then after four years though, it was, um, classed as terminal. So they said, you know, it's terminal, he was into palliative care. And again, you think, I thought palliative care was when he was dying. So there's lots of, all of this comes, and of course, once you, you become quite an expert at it after a while, but to begin with, you really don't know what you're doing. Um, but I was always the onlooker, and he was the brave. and incredible man and I mean that in the nicest way because he was quite annoying most of the time but and frustrating because he wouldn't open up about anything, life in general. He used to be a very social drinker. He liked his beer. He was very, as I said, he was out club all the time. The day after his diagnosis, he sparkling water, pints of sparkling water. He didn't touch a drop of anything else for two years. He pleaded not guilty. took our dog out for longer and longer walks, and he developed such a mental and physical fitness. He was so determined to, to beat this, so determined. And I, I met a new person, he was a different person, and I'm so, and even my son said latterly, he said that, that eight years was actually the making of him, which it brought out compassion, it brought out, um, you know, just everything that, that these shocks give you. But I, didn't think he would do that. I thought he would turn to drink. I didn't think he could cope because he was very emotionally sort of stunted man. And although I knew his heart was there for all of us, he was quite scared of his own emotions and he didn't like to, um, open up. So this taught him how to open up. It taught him how to talk to people. It taught him how to, how to be, um, and after he got the, the final diagnosis, not the final, the four year diagnosis, he just got stronger and stronger. He did, he did all the master marches. He did fundraising events. He started fundraising events for the cricket club. And I think because there was this urgency, it made him go. He'd stop listening to all these people twittering on about plans for this and plans for that and he's going I'm on a limit here Let's get these things going So all the committee meetings he he went he used to come home going on for goodness sake. Let's just do this You're gonna see the benefits. I'm not come on. Let's do it. So the drive really Was incredible. and it's I guess a little bit like being widowed in terms of you can, people respond in very different ways to Yeah. and I was very much, I lent into alcohol when Ben died. I was a problematic drinker but two years ago I said right that's enough, took back control and I feel You know, a hundred times better as a result. My dad had, um, he had cancer last year, uh, prostate cancer. And I say had because it's been successfully removed and no sign of, of, um, of any spread. But my dad has, um, He's cycling from Land's End to John O'Groats. Um, yeah, he, he's a, he doesn't, he hasn't drunk for a long time, so he doesn't drink alcohol, but he's, you know, he wants to come and see me and the kids, and they're going on holidays, and they're going to spend time with their friends, and although he's not, as it were, on a, um, you know, a time, yeah, it does make you realize what's important. And I'm so proud of my dad and the way he's responded to that. mm, no, I know friends with parents who've had a cancer diagnosis, parents have had a cancer diagnosis, and they've just kind of given it, you know, I'm old, that's it, I'm giving in. And, and I think you can tell an awful lot about Richard's character from, from that. I think he sounds like a really wonderful But, but we are, we are all on a time limit, but you don't know it until you, until you get a wake up call. Um, and, and, you know, jumping right ahead, it's, I'm on a time limit. I mean, I'm not, I'm not ill in any way, as far as I know of, but this is why I wanted to, um, get, Not to get over, because you never get over grief, but get on with grieving, because I didn't want to dwell on it, and I didn't want to waste the rest of my life. I can't change. And presumably you and Richard had this conversation because you knew he was terming off the voice. You know you No, it was rubbish at conversations. It was done in quips, um, dark humor. Um, because whenever a conversation got to the point where it was, tearful. He, he just didn't know what to do with it. He couldn't handle it. At the very end, I mean, I used to joke, we did a lot of joking, but I used to joke and said, you're going to tell me all the good stuff on your deathbed, aren't you? And he was like, yeah, probably, which he did. I know going to say, did he absolutely did. all in a, in a, about a 10 minute bracket. And I just thought I knew him well enough to know that there was no point saying, talk to me. There was no point saying, I want to talk about it. He just used to say, we'll talk about it when there's something to talk about. So if there was a diagnosis or a treatment, yes, of course we'd talk about that. But it was more about the logistics rather than the emotions. Um, he, he took a, long time to face his emotional side. He did all the practical stuff and got busy, busy, but he couldn't, he couldn't bear the thought of, of dying. He, he, he said, I can't, I'm not ready to die. I've got too much to do. Yeah, this is, yeah, it's, it's really, I can feel that it's coming through in the way you're talking about him. And I'm just wondering about your children, because they're all grown adults now with their own lives, but I know how I felt when my dad came round to tell me he had cancer, and it must have had a huge impact on, on them. And I'm thinking about your daughter in Australia, she must have so badly wanted to be with you. Yeah. She always said that she knew once she moved there, that one day there would be issues, and she wouldn't want to come back or come and see us or, and whether she would, and once Dad was diagnosed, Richard was diagnosed, she always said, I, there's a huge risk that I may not see him before he dies and that was what she took on when she went abroad. So she knew that, we all knew that, and I accepted that. I didn't, I wasn't going to make her come flying back every five minutes. It was just, they, they'd made their peace with each other. They'd obviously talked and she'd drawn out a lot more emotion in him than I had, I think, which is a daughter's way. Uh, and um, so they knew them, they knew the risks and that was the case and she was in touch with him and everything. And she made it back, didn't she? She, oh, that last three weeks, she was, by then had a toddler, she was also pregnant and her husband didn't know if he could get the time off, he was a policeman, and they got back, because he was given, because this eight years drifted, and it was, drifted is a big word in my vocabulary, because this eight years drifted, because it was treatment scan, treatment scan, treatment scan, successful treatment, not successful, it was a complete up and down, but then. Um, four weeks before he died, he, the jaundice set in, which was obviously very obvious because he was yellow, and they said, um, straight away, you've got, um, a few weeks, possibly to, you know, whatever the wording was, but we knew it was, That was it. So then my son actually was the one that got on to my daughter and said you, you need to come back. Um, and she got back with, with the children and the baby and she'd, she'd had problems with pregnancy. And this was an early pregnancy. So this was again another risk. So I had all that worry about her. Um, she made it back. She spent 10 days with him in this environment that I explained. Um, and then he died and we rushed through a memorial because we did a direct cremation. We, we rushed through the memorial at the Privet Club, we had a marquee and, and everything set up and we did the memorial the day before they went back to Australia. So we crammed it all into three weeks so that she could be there for, and she managed to be there for all of it. Um, and then she was, you know, obviously shot back home. Um, but within my travels that I've just come back from, I spent a good time with her and we sorted out all this sort of emotional stuff. So And I want to talk, I definitely want to ask you about this. Because in your application, I think you just got back from five months I got back in, I say I just got back in, it feels like it's January I got back, yeah. And how, how was that? You didn't literally backpack? Um, I, I, well, uh, I had a backpack that weighed six pounds and that's what I carried, travelled with and I didn't hike through the hills, no. But I did, um, a lot of destinations all around the coast. I went all around the southeast coast, went to New Zealand, went to Tasmania. My daughter's in Perth, so I stayed with her until she had the baby, and then I set off on my own for a six week solo trip with my trusty backpack. And I got coaches and trains and airplanes and buses and walked around a bit. And so it's backpacking, but not Year didn't youth hostel. not an 18-year-old. I did it as a, as a 63-year-old. 62-year-old. And I don't want to patronise you by saying that's really brave, but actually that is really brave. To go off kind of completely into the unknown with a backpack and not having your person with you either. To go off and do that. But freeing is, yeah. Very was talking about this the other day with a fellow widow and we were talking about When you realise that the decisions land with you, and only you. And, yes, it's quite scary. But also, there's a little bit of, kind of, empowerment. And I'm cautious of saying that, really, because I don't want to sort of sound like I'm playing down the pain. But, I can remember being in one of my children's schools and going, I'm making this decision, there's nobody else. the grown up suddenly. Yeah. Yeah, on the ground. all I, all I needed, all I wanted, all I knew is I obviously went to Australia because the, the baby. Perfect. route. And then I was talking to my daughter and I said, I want to, I want, uh, just briefly back, briefly going back when, before he died, I knew I had to have a reason. I knew I had to have a plan all of my own. He didn't want to know my plans, which I get it. I was a bit hurt at first, but I get it. Who wants to talk about, I'm going to have fun. I'm going to have when you're gone. Um, so I read, a friend gave me the salt path. Have you read the short path? It's briefly, No, I haven't. I'm going to write this down. and walked around the south west coast path of England in an effort to find themselves and to survive this trauma that they had lost everything, their house and everything. And I read it, and I just thought, that's what I want to do. I want to, I've got to, Yes, I'm okay. Run away. I've got to get away. I want to get away from all the platitudes. I want to get away from work. I want to get away from where everybody's trying to make me better. And I want to find solitude and peace on my own. I need to reach the depths I need to reach in order to start getting back. And I knew that the things that make me happy are the coast, um, the beaches, the weather. And I love Australia, and so I was in Australia, so I thought, I said to Catherine, and she was so supportive and so helped me plan it. And it, well it wasn't really a plan, it was just sort of a ticket in and a ticket out, that was all I had, and the rest was made up as I went along. Um, and, I went, I found it, I found solitude. There's beaches there, there's miles of sand with not a soul in sight, and the, the rawness of nature, the sea and the sky, it's blue, it's spacious, warm, friendly, um, and I reached places of extreme, um, sadness, but of extreme beauty, and if that doesn't start healing your soul, I don't think, And yes, I mean, it was brave, but I had no choice. Um, I missed him tremendously, but that was what I was aiming for. I needed to grieve really properly. Um, with nobody telling me it'll be all right or you'll get there and all the things that they very kindly tell you, but you don't understand until you, you know, what is there? I don't want to get there. Where's there? Um, so I had to, you know, hurt, um, but I wanted to hurt my own. Um, and, but the love of the place and the beauty of the place and the sunshine and the sea, I mean, that's, it's just, you feel like you're a dot in this world once you see it in that sort of capacity. So I went round from Adelaide to Brisbane, including Tasmania and New Zealand, because my son was actually in New Zealand, so I went over and saw him briefly. Um, had six weeks of solo and then went back to Perth for Christmas with my daughter, and then I went. to Mauritius and South Africa on the way home to see family because I had my sister in South Africa. So I did 30, 000 miles, I worked out roughly, in various forms of transport, um, in five months, five countries, um, and It was, it was amazing. I mean it was as beautiful and as lovely as it sounds, but that, with that bittersweet edge of what am I doing here on my own. But there's something so powerful in that, in going to seek out your solitude so that you can grieve in the way that you need to, in the way that you want to. Now I, I turned to alcohol as I've discussed, but I also ran, and you talk about that book, and there was a book called Outrunning Your Demons, and it's a collection of stories of people that have run addiction, very, you know, whatever your, your trauma is. And I think your way actually sounds nicer, but, um, Yes. I will. I'm older and I've am I. all my life. I've got back problems and you know, this, that, the other. And I, so I wasn't pretending to be super fit or brave or could suddenly go wild camping or something. I sort of, I thought, no, no. And I stayed in nice places, mostly sort of like chalets on the beach, nothing fancy, but nothing rough either. I didn't go in hostels. I. I was lucky enough, I obviously had Richard's pension and that's what I did with it. I think that's why I never went travelling as a teenager, you know. I think the thought of staying in youth hostels Yeah, no, no, I sort of agree, I've got, I would love to do this. I'd love to, when my children are older, go and do something like this. Just go but as I said, you know, I'm lucky because A, I could do that financially, physically, um, geographically, it was a great place, my work was sorted out, I mean I took my world back down to zero. And, but I could, people don't, in that situation when they lose people, as we know, um, so I, I, I do know how fortunate I am, as well. And, and to have, have had Richard for eight years. People, my sister lost two husbands in a, two freak accidents. No! so, you know, she didn't have a chance to do anything. So although we didn't talk, you know, I know you said we didn't, it was sort of strange that we didn't talk. Of course we did, we, but it was snippets and, little drip feed. it's drip feed. Drip feed. I knew what he wanted. And yeah, we just trusted each other to know what was, was going on. And if, and if he had anything serious to sort out, I'd listen, but I wasn't going to pester because I think that's, it's, it's his journey, not, not mine at that stage. Um, You've sort of downplayed the word brave as you've been talking, um, um, yes, I do believe that going off traveling on 60s is pretty, pretty damn brave, um, but I also think that making The choice, this kind of, we talk a lot on the podcast about choice and I think that is where the bravery comes in because you, like, much like Richard, you have the two choices, don't you? You can choose to wallow at home or you can go, fuck Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you think you could, you would, um, ever move to Australia? No, not now because, um, I've got two Children, two children here, I've got five grandchildren, four grandchildren here. Um, I love England. Um, I, my house is perfect size for me now. It was too small when all the kids were growing up and I used to, you know, wish we could move and now it's absolutely perfect. Um, I know I love it here. And also I get a three month visa. I guess, a tourist visa every year, so I can go every year, which I will do. I'll go, it's too much of a hassle to move. Um, it's lovely out there, and I, you know, I do love it, but I don't, um, need to move out there, no, no. No, I've never been actually. I'd like to go very much, um, however, as I'm sure you can remember having three children and traveling with four kids is challenging and expensive and I've got a funny feeling I wouldn't want to come back either. I think once I'd seen it, I'd I mean, again, I was lucky. My daughter wasn't in, you know, back and beyond. I mean, she was in a great place and Australia is a super place to travel because people are so nice. I couldn't travel many places on my own, um, as safely as I did and as, as, as easily as I did. I was never for one second felt scared or, or bothered um, at all. I felt very, very safe. I'm going to be booking my ticket after this, aren't I? One way. I'm going back in October for six weeks, Oh, fabulous. Now, something else I wanted to ask you about, which isn't actually directly related to your story, but it popped into my head, therefore I've got to ask. You must have been working in the residential home during COVID. And Richard presumably was classed as vulnerable. So were you able to keep working? And I'm wondering whether you were concerned about his health during that time as well. We had, uh, the, the place they'd opened, no, the place, obviously, we, we continued working, both of us right the way through COVID, the place was working, the place was in lockdown, but the place was still working, all of our staff were, were tested every day, and obviously, if we developed COVID, then we had the time off as necessary. So, Rishi got it three times, I think, none of which, ironically, Um, made him particularly ill. The first time he got it was right at the onset, before testing was even about. And he only found out later because of um, antibodies. Um, and he was fine. Um, yes he was. He had all the tests, he, they, massive, um, amount of attention. But he didn't suffer from getting COVID any more than anybody else, weirdly. I just wondered with it being, you know, a residential home, and obviously that we were hearing all the time about how, um, how awful it was for people there. we were very lucky. Again, we kept on working. Well, and you were able to have a kind of 10 minute conversation towards the very end where he was able to express, um, you know, he felt about you, presumably, I won't, I won't ask you to share that unless you want to, but, um, and then I'm just, I'm thinking so. Then you've, he's, he's died. You've, you've pulled together this memorial very quickly. I had a memorial for my husband as well because of, um, the circumstances, but, and then how, sorry, sorry, let me get my words out. And then you've, you've gone back to work and I'm, I'm, I'm sort of guessing here, I'm hypothesizing that it, it was, um, going back to be where, well in fact no, you said at the beginning, going back into this job that you did together, that you loved together, and that's what prompted you to presumably go off on your, your adventures. as I said, before he died, I knew that I was going to do something. The Australia idea grew slowly, very, very slowly, drip fed between us. But I had, so I took the time off that I was with him in the thing, I took as my annual leave, which was sort of three weeks. So, going back to work was obvious, um, to think, to take time to think about when and how, really. Um, So I went back in the, in the May, three weeks afterwards, and continued my job, really just treading water, just as things, as things developed, really. Um, and then I decided actually I was going to go at the end of the year, and I thought, I had a brainwave, I suddenly thought, I want to go now, what am I doing, and I said to my son, what am I doing, and he said, Mum, it's a no brainer, why do you need to stay, you don't need to stay. It was just the fact that it was the structure of my life, was go to work, I couldn't have, I wouldn't have done well if I'd suddenly stopped work when he died, I would have just been floundered. Um, but through the summer, through the three months after I, when I was working, the idea of being at home, in the dark evenings as I remember thinking, you know, come September, October, November. And I thought, I can't do this. I can't get home at four o'clock in the dark and have nobody here. And I just thought, Oh, I'm going to Australia now. And I said to my boss, you know, what do I need to do? And she said, well, cause I was going to retire when I got back from Australia. And she said, well, It would be good if you retired now because then we can find somebody else and it's the best thing to do. So I said, fine, I'm not, I'm not, that's it, I'm, I'm done. My heart had, my heart was very much in the job, but my, I couldn't, I didn't have enough emotions for the job. It was a very emotionally loaded job. I was a, um, sheltered housing manager. So I was dealing with 25 elderly people in their own units and their little emotional problem, not little, they weren't listening to them, but to. You know, small, their words are very small. And I was like the old fashioned warden, so the, like an emotional support and a physical support, and they were looking after themselves, but I was the eyes and ears and the person they went to. And to take all that on board as well, um, I just thought, I'm not, you know, don't feel like I'm doing my job properly because my heart is somewhere else. Um, and so I didn't like that feeling either because I thought I'm not going to take advantage of these people. Um, so then it just all came together and I thought, no, no, I'm going to Australia. I'm off. Um, this is, this is my salt path. I'm going off. I'm going I really like it's like a different, a different salt path. It's a, yeah, it's an Australian salt path. Um, probably a And have you, a lot warm and dry. Yes, absolutely. So. That's, so I did make a rash decision to, to, uh, A good rash decision to just go, I'm off, I'm going. What's holding you back? um, you've got grandchildren, how many did you say you've got, was it five? I've got six. You've got six grandchildren, expensive Christmas, it's for you, and do you have sort of, I'm just wondering if you've got kind of a memory box or anything that you've got for those, for the children who, who didn't get to know Richard, because my husband's dad died. I mean, in a freak coincidence. four years to the day. Oh gosh. look and see what that noise is. It's absolutely hammering it down. Um, so, um, his, so Ben's mum has made like bunting with some of his clothes that the children have got in their rooms and that sort of thing. And it's quite, it's a strange thing, concept, because you don't want to force grief onto people that aren't actually grieving, but also you'd want to make sure that their, that legacy, that memory is continued. So I'm just curious to know if you've done anything. actually, one of During Richard's eight years, he developed an eccentric streak in terms of clothes, which I didn't know about, and I think I might have hesitated if I'd known this was in there, but he, it was very much that sort of solid attitude. I'm dying anyway, I may as well be weird. Um, and he, bought lots of colorful suits and of course when he did the master marches he bought dress up suits to wear and he bought very garish shirts and he it was a and he was known for it anyway wherever he like my dad on a good day. just known for it he had far far more clothes than i did and suits in every color he had he found an online cheap suit site and weekly these suits were it was just unbelievable anyway And for the funeral, the, the thing was no, uh, it was bright colors and all my kids, um, wore his suits. Um, kids and friends wore his suits. They all had to have them dramatically altered 'cause he was six foot four. And so there's lots of people having dramatically altered suits the week before, but they all wore them for the memorial. Both my sons and a lot of our friends at This is wonderful. Do you have a photo that you would share with me of this? I have, yes, I I'd love to see it. Not right now, obviously, no. Immediately. um, on the back of that I've saved, although I got rid of all his other clothes that meant nothing to me, I've got a bag of all the colourful clothes and literally next Wednesday I'm meeting a friend from work who does teddies as a hobby and I'm getting six made for the grandchildren. So That's really lovely. I did that with Ben's clothes and, and my, because I, again, I'm never sure how much people know about my life, but I've remarried another, John, who you met briefly earlier. He's a, he's widowed too. So we, I got some of his late wife's clothes and some of my husband's clothes and the children have each got a bear. yeah. Well I'm getting bears done and I'm probably getting a couple of cushions as well for But um, and on that Note, I think the positive side of Richard's attitude towards the cancer was the teaching of his children and the grandchildren of death and grief. Yeah. It the, the, the you. This is what you don't, you don't think about in the dark days, but the ripple effect of his attitude and his stoicism, and they're non complaining and they're not the poor me attitude and it'll help. Brought out the best in the three kids as well and the grandchildren will know nothing other than that sort of attitude. Um, and death is unfortunately part of life. And to experience. Loss at any point in your life is horrible. It's, and for your children to have lost their dad, you know, I'm not ready to lose my parents and I'm in my forties. But it is how you will have dealt with it, how Richard dealt with it, it teaches them, not necessarily that it's not something to be afraid of, but I guess that it is, it's something that we're all going to Yeah. But it also stops them They don't make drama out of it, out of a crisis, because he did not make any drama out of it. He taught them and he showed them, and they will always, he will always be a great example to, like they took, you know, the seven year old, the eldest grandchild, um, second eldest, but the first one's disabled, and went on the Master's March with him in the last year, part of the Master's March. So that's, those little memories, they'll never forget. All the stuff that we didn't know anything about, like I said, pre cancer, I didn't know anything about the Master. It was just a place. on the hill over the way that other people went to. um and hearing you talk about that, kind of having to become an expert in, in, in cancer, my, I mean, John used to, he said in the end, he laminated some pages because every time they got, and Sarah died from bowel cancer, so every time they got sent to A& E because she had, um, norovirus or, you know, whatever they were calling it at the time, he would present them with this laminated folder because he got sick. So fed up of repeating every proceed procedure that she'd had done and you do you you almost deserve Sort of honorary degree at the end of it. Don't you Well, I still do. Um, I'm still on the research panel at the Marlstone because they, um, I, again, I didn't go to the Marlstone unless there was something serious to be heard, because it was his, his. life. He met the people. It was his, his little world, really. Um, he had control over it there. If I didn't want me nagging in his ear. So I didn't have much to do with the Marsden until, until latterly, when, um, we raised money after his funeral and money went to the Marsden and I wanted to buy tangible things. I didn't want to just put it in the fund. So I bought some put me up beds so that relatives can stay next to their loved ones. And they were engraved with his name and a little saying, and I do a lot of I do. things. Uh, the spot. Have a nice no, one of them was, um, I think it was be kind to yourself and then Richard Hilde and the date and the other one was in your unsafe hands. and then Richard condoned the date. So, um, we had that and then I bought them things for the staff room, which the charity do necessarily or can't do or shouldn't do, but like a really nice new microwave and fridge and coffee machine, all the things that the staff deserved. Um, and they also gave them cakes every month because he used to go out, he shouldn't have gone out, he used to go to the local baker and buy trays of cakes for all the staff every time he visited. And he said to me, about two days before he died, he said, um, can you deliver cakes to the, to the two wards after I've gone? And I set up with, with the rest of the money, I set up a monthly delivery to the Marsden for cakes for that ward. So lovely so, so they always remembered him because he was always remembered for his cakes. Oh, how lovely. And also, what a way to be remembered. And I like the fact that you've taken into consideration the staff there, because I don't think you necessarily think of that. You think, well, we'll donate, we'll raise money for the fund. But I love the fact that there's a real tangible so it had to be, thing. Yeah, thing is a terrible word, but we look sent some, um, I sent a piece, on request, I sent a piece of writing that's actually called Driftwood, um, into them just to, just because, just to share. And they put it up on, they indulged it and pushed it up on the staff wall for all the staff to see, which was so sweet. do you have that with you now? Um, I have it, uh, I do, I I was just wondering whether you wanted to read it. I'd love to read it if I can. Oh yes, I have. I'd love to, it's not long, I don't know if I may. Go on then. Yeah, you read that. I'd like to hear it. You want me to read this and keep myself together? What's the matter with you? Well, I've got my, I've got my tissues. That's okay. Right, this is Driftwood. Um, I'm not heaving with unbearable grief anymore as the ending gave me incredible pride, relief, and overall peace. I am, however, totally weak with sadness. Tears fall freely without drama, creating a wetness under my chin which I let drip until the tank has overflowed and is back to a weight I can carry again. Thank you. The effort of keeping a lid on my reservoir is far too great, and once the level gets too high I take myself to a quiet place and gently cry. Drifting through early grief is like a small branch steadily bobbing down a pretty winding river. Sometimes it's a sunny day, warm and blue, cow parsley covering the bank, and the water is calm, moving towards an unknown destination, silver light shimmering like jewels on the surface. Other days the clouds are dark and menacing, spoiling the view. The river flows violently in all directions and the solitary branch struggles to maintain stability and avoid getting tangled in the reeds or bashing into the hidden rocks just below the choppy surface. Still heading towards unknown waters but unable to get out of the course or pull over to the bank to catch a breath. Will today lead to fierce stormy weather and rapids, feeling exhausted and battered? Or will I gently float on top of a quiet mill pond, alone in the warmth of the sun, appreciating the peace around me. Will I stay face up or roll face down? Whatever each day brings is unknown until I open my eyes and remember I am that broken branch now, instead of being part of the tree I once was. That tall, lifeless silhouette still appears proud and strong on the riverbank after it dropped me into this river, and I now have to find my way through the rapids and ripples until I reach a more peaceful and familiar place. Maybe I'll be glad one day to get caught permanently in the riverbank and let new life settle on and around me, giving me stability and a purpose once more. All I really want to do is fight my way back upstream with all my remaining strength and find my beautiful tree again, alive with leaves and birds, and reattach myself to it so we can be as one again. But I'm no salmon, and the mighty oak is blackened and bare now, getting further away from me every day. So I'll try and accept myself as driftwood and see where the river of life takes me next. Well, you got me on the, um, finding my beautiful tree again. I was, I was holding it together until then. And then you brought me back from the brink with I'm no salmon. So that made me laugh. And that line, um, letting your tears come out so that your grief kind of gets back to a weight that you can carry again. And I am terrible for this. And I would bottle everything up and then it will come out in, you know, just rage almost. And what I've been trying to do over the past couple of years is allow myself the freedom to cry. I don't know whether it's being mum, you know, you, you, You Well, you can't, you have to put on a front. Yeah. you do, and everyone says, oh, make sure you put your own oxygen mask on first and all this, but I think when you're a mum and you've got grieving children, you don't. And this letting a little bit, letting it out incrementally has been life changing for me because I'm not carrying that weight of the grief all the time. That's beautiful. That's really But that, thank you. That, that's, that is actually the, the. The lesson I learned being away was to cry, not, to just, it didn't have to be gut wrenching, all that moves on, but I still do it. I probably cry every day, because when I get the feeling, I just let it go, and I don't force it, and I don't prevent it, and I'm lucky enough, as I said, I don't have children looking at me, although I did that the other day, I was outside with my granddaughter, we were working on a little project, house that Richard built for her at the end of the garden. And I had this robin, and robins are signs, you know, would not let me, it was almost on my shoulder, this robin. It was just there and I wasn't feeding to anything, it was just there. And I just thought, oh, typical, because he loved this little house with, he shared with the granddaughter. And I just cried and I just said to Willow, and she said, are you going to cry? And I said, yes, I am. And I said, I'm sorry, I'm just, I can't help it. And I said, that's granddad. He said, he's just telling me it's about time I cleaned out this house. And, um, And that's fine. And I have learned that it's to, to, when you feel it, don't go, you know, like I normally would And, and that horrible lump in your throat when you're trying to squash it down. And I'd done that. You see, I'd kept the tears back all the time he was alive because I didn't want to upset him. So I'd done a lot of that. And then now I think, no, no, did you have any therapy or anything like that? no. Um, I haven't. I think I, You sort of did No, I, I didn't, I didn't feel the need as such, because I think the therapy was, I took, I took that on myself. I'm not against it, and I would have done it, but I don't think I, I think the therapy to me was to actually go away. And I had also, um, it had a tremendous effect on my middle child, my son, who was, both the boys are very, very deep and complicated, just like Richard. And he had kept it back, he had his issues, and he hadn't opened up to Richard until the last four weeks of his life. Um, so he was going through it, so he helped me tremendously, because suddenly he found a voice. He spoke to Richard, they spoke to each other, they grasped that last few weeks. And with that newfound openness, he was open to me, so we cried and talked a lot together. And so, and he still is my number one therapist. Um, son actually is very emotionally, he's only 14 tomorrow, he's very emotionally mature. And I lost my engagement ring from Ben. We just, we went to Turkey for a week over Easter and I lost it, and of all places I lost it in the sea. And it absolutely devastated me. Beyond kind of what I felt was a normal, rational response, I was just heartbroken. No, that's just, you've given one thing away to the sea, you don't need to give Quite, but you know what my son said to me, and I think you'll like this, I know you've got a bit of a dark humor, but it'd be funny if Dad's found it, won't it? Uh, yeah, but it, it, what it did is it opened, um, it kind of opened the lines of communication again, because we talk very openly about Ben and Sarah in this house, because that's, that's, that's my approach to how we deal with grief, but I was crying, he was crying, and it prompted a conversation about what we might do if Dad's body was found, and I think sometimes, actually, they need to see that you're upset. And, and exactly. Um, I, I'm not afraid of it at all now. I don't, and I don't embarrass people and I don't cry if I can help it, but I don't, when I'm on my own or with my children, if I get a moment, I just sort of go, bear with me. I mean, they always, you know, they laugh because they, you can, you can see, you can't, you use like, and my voice always goes really Yes, mine does. It gets really sort of strangled. start talking. But. And then it passes, and that's fine. And then, that, I definitely learned on my own, is to, to, that I was able, and I think again, getting away from people, I didn't want people to make me better. No, but they can't, can they? and I needed to cry, and now, as I said, if I feel it, and I just, I'll have a busy day, and I can be doing something, and I just sort of go, oh, Mm. uh, two minutes later, and then the pressure's off. Because it does, it strikes you completely out of the blue grief as well. You can spend, like, I'm thinking of you having the anniversary, you'll be, you know, preparing yourself for it. And I've found sometimes on the ann the year anniversary, I, I, I almost feel numb. And it'll be, like I said to you earlier, the fact that my son's birthday's coming up. I'm thinking, why do I feel really out of sorts this week? And of course, that, that's probably it. and I can't, and I mean I'm getting excited about my life again now because obviously once I came back from Australia I hadn't got used to not working so I was suddenly retired and, and, and the space in front of me was vast because I had nobody in it, not just, not him, but no job, no kids. I had this massive space to fill and I just thought this was that this would be the time when I draw the curtains and shut the door because I just thought this is actually quite scary. Um, and now that the year's up now I'm getting I'm self publishing my book and I'm getting so excited about that that I've got excitement in my life again and it's a really nice feeling to have that rather than the pain in my chest. I've got like, Ooh, bit nervous and a bit excited purpose. This is what this has done for me, actually. and I'm thinking he would love this, you know, this is, Oh, he'd love to see me doing this, you know, but I'd love to share they I come home and I've got a phone call or something and I'm like, Who do I tell? Who do I found that with things like the kids first, I mean not the kids, the youngest one was very young, so when she took her first steps I found that the only person that cares about this as much as I do is not here. Quickly just tell me about your book, what is it, is it a poetry book? no, no, it's um, no, it's a book um, based on the style of The Salt Path. It's about the sort of minutiae of my trip to Australia. So it starts with when I got on the plane from Heathrow and it ends with, literally at Easter this year when I went to the Channel Islands to have another Easter away. It wasn't as, quite as far Not quite, it's exotic, no, but it still gave me the solitude and the peace that I recognised as being my need. Um, so it's a, so it's the journey of, of, it's emotional, physical, geographical, so it obviously geographically describes everywhere I go. It is my emotions written on the day and not changed apart from grammar and spelling. I wrote every day. Not forced it, which I just got it out, got it out, got it out. Um, it's funny in places, it's true, it's honest and it's um, observational humour. It's, it's, it's light and it's dark as in equal measures, which makes it, I believe, readable because you, it's not, it's not um, all doom and gloom by any, by any means, but it's relatable I believe to people that are going through it. It's called Caught in a Riptide, so an R I P tide, Nice. because it sort of starts with my, my dog died, then my mother died, then Richard died, all in eight months, and I was thinking, you know, anybody else, you know, seriously? I like, you start to think that like the universe is conspiring against you and it was actually my mum who's quite a matter of fact and she said Rosie, don't be a narcissist because I was thinking why is this happening to me? What have I done? And then on the flip side, and this again is the thing that makes me smile because I do take time to recognize things, um, since Richard died, The flow of life, the positivity, and the ease of life, and that sounds like a strange thing to be talking about, but I'm, I mean, the, the physical things, like every flight I went on was good, every booking worked, every, and I just came home and I thought, this doesn't happen, you know, the weather was good everywhere I went, everyone I met was, and I just thought, okay, okay, somebody's there. sorting this out for me. It's your time. and the book has just, I've met an illustrator, I've met somebody who's helping me do this, and it's like, bang, bang, bang, bang. And I just thought, oh, this is, this is, just makes me smile, just makes me laugh, makes me smile. You're making me smile because I'm loving the fact that you are literally grabbing life by the balls and, and, And having some I've got to. Yeah. So when, when can we buy this book? Because I will make a purchase. Well, I decided that when I was in Guernsey because I've been looking for an agent and as you, I don't know if you know, but you have to send it off to an agent and you have to wait, say six weeks for a reply and if they say no, then you have to wait another six weeks for another one. And I wanted to come out while the passion was still there, obviously still there, but while it was fresh. And I wanted control of it as in, I learned if you, publish stuff, you don't have necessarily as much control, etc, etc. And my brother in law's a printer, so I've got, I've worked backwards and I now know what I need to present, and then, and so he's going to give me some, print me some copies, um, which, and I have the connections at the Marsden, which I'll sell it through, um, the, the, all the places I possibly can, and on Amazon, and, um, a percentage of which will go to the, um, Marsden. So I'm literally, um, enough, I've, I've, I'm meeting the illustrator next week, I've met the planner the week before, and once I've got the, the thing together, it will go to the printer, so I'm hoping to have it out by, certainly by July, August. make sure you let me know because we've just started selling, um, WAFF merchandise and I would happily put an affiliate link so that Yes, I'll send you, no, I'll send you a copy, no Yeah, do. And I will, I'll do you a review as well Thank you. Thank you. Yes. But so it's, it is only about my story. It can only be about my story. So there may be people that think, well, yeah, I was privileged to be able to do that. Well, yes, but it wasn't through years of, you know, hard graft before and, and luck. sorry I interrupted you there. I struggled with, um, when I decided to do this podcast because I'm in another relationship, because I have financial stability, because I'm in a, I have my moments, but in quite a good place. And I thought, God, I've got, you know, if I was back in that really bleak darkness where I was, you know, I was scared about how I was going to, you know, pay the mortgage and all. And actually, I think people, are interested in other people's stories, otherwise people wouldn't listen to this, would they? And also, I think of hope. They want to know that your entire life can implode, and it doesn't mean that it's the end for you as well. So I think people like you, voices that I want to share them with the world, and I think people want to hear them. So positive. It's a positive spin, but it's not denying any part of it at all. Um, it's a positive spin on the fact that life can carry on in a different way that you don't want, but you don't have a choice. Well, you do have a choice, but obviously, which path do you take? I took the, I've, I've got children that I owe, um, being alive for, and I'm not going to, and often to be success, to be happy for and successful in my, uh, achievements and dreams because that's, they don't need. to look after me being miserable about something that we knew was going to happen. We were lucky, we knew. And I often say to people that even though nobody likes to think of themselves as being a widow, if you're in a romantic relationship, it's One of you is going to be. So it's something that we do need to talk about and prepare for. And I bet your kids are really proud of you. Do they tell I think they, they do say, I mean, again, they're all a bit emotional, I'm too large, but I'm the sort of chat, chatting box, but no, they are, and I'm, and I want to make them proud because they, they are, I'm their example still, doesn't matter how old you are, you're still the Um, I'm their example and I want them them to be the same example to their children. So, um, and it's, it's, as I said, it is freeing. I'm learning who I am because, and I, and I wrote another thing, I certainly won't read it now, but it's called Out of Your Shadow. I love being in that shadow. I absolutely loved it. I'm very proud of that shadow, but I'm actually in the full face of the sun now and I've got to deal with it. And, um, and it's quite, it's, Nice. Um, in, as you said, the funny ways that you think, Oh, I don't have to do all that damn washing anymore. And I don't have to keep getting the mud off the carpet that you've walked through. And I don't have to keep cooking. And I mean, everybody, every wife thinks that for a few days, it would be such joy. And when their husband goes away for a week, they're like, Oh, I can watch what I like on telly. And the novelty, of course, wears off. But the, when, when that, when you get back to sort of thinking sensibly about it, it's. I don't, I can do what I want, actually. I've cared for them all these years, and I loved it. I wouldn't change it for a thing, but it's changed itself. I haven't changed it. Um, so, so, and you have to also, Take them off the pedestal sometimes and remember how annoying they were and frustrating they were and the mess they made and all that. Because otherwise I think it becomes an unreal grief. You can thrive on it. It's very easy to romanticise and actually one of the things my son said to me not that long ago was that he feels almost intimidated by the fact that Ben was, his dad was such a wonderful man. And I was like, I'm gonna stop you there, love. Yes. He was a wonderful man, but he was a very naughty boy when he was a teenager. He wasn't perfect, and, and this idea that we don't speak ill of the dead, it's, it's, you've got to actually give them the rounded picture rather than just this canonization. Oh, totally. I say in my book, I say, don't, don't thrive on, on grief. You know, it's a dangerous master, but you don't, it don't, it can be your constant companion, but not your master because it's too, it's, it's just not realistic. It's just not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not right for those around you and yourself if you let it eat you up, which it so easily could. well, you don't, when it first happens, you don't, and you can't imagine ever, ever having it not at the forefront of Oh, it's there. It's there. I had it in my chest. like I had it right in my chest. It was a physical pain right in my chest. and every time you open your eyes, it's back, Oh, no. and then it gradually sort of moves back, and it was a friend of mine whose son died, which, you know, is a loss that, thank goodness, goodness, I've never had to experience, but she said it's, it was, you know, right here, you can't, for anybody who's just listening, I've got my hand in front of my face, and you can't see anything, and then gradually it moves back, and you can sort of peek around it, and, and it's, It sort of, it never goes, but life exists around and I, I'm really like that in the letter because. And I know people say, oh, we wouldn't want you to be sad, but Ben wouldn't want me to be sad. He wouldn't want me to have spent the next, the last six years, you know, elbow deep in vodka crying. He wouldn't want me to have made no, no. Richard would have been furious with me. He would have said, What the bloody hell are you doing? You've got my pension. Go and enjoy it. And actually one of the things I said in the speech I did at Ben's memorial was I promised to show the children that a wonderful world awaits them. And that's that. Yeah. Did you do, did you do it, did you do it with a live speech or did you do tape it? No, I did it. I don't know how. I don't know. My son did as well, you know. My seven year old son stood up in front of a church with hundreds of people. I know. I know. I'm I did my eulogy, but I taped it. I bottled it My dad stood behind me with it written down in case I, I crumbled. well done. You. had a couple of little, uh, Little stiff drinks beforehand, I hasten to add. hours. A friend of mine who works for the BBC taped it. He did all the audio and video at the memorial because we had about 350 people. And he did all the, um, and we had lots of speeches and, um, all the video going on and the music. We did a lot of music. And I, and he's, and Richard had always said, I said, who am I going to get to write, to read my eulogy, and he went, if you write a eulogy, you read a eulogy, and I thought, oh, thanks. Thanks. So, and then my friend said, oh, I can put you in a recording studio and we'll record it, so. Yeah. Perfect. I think had I considered that as an option, I might have done it, but I also feel very proud of myself, you know? Yeah, well done. Yes, well done. And I, my, the baby, hold the baby, my son there, and then my middle son is autistic and he found it very, very overwhelming, so he'd drawn a picture and we held that up, because I wanted, again, to be able to say to them when Yes. Yes. think because there wasn't, it wasn't a funeral, it was a memorial, and I felt that I wanted to say to them, you were involved. Mm. Well, this is actually, I mean, I, I, I was lucky enough to, um, we had a direct formation, so we didn't go to it. It was just done because I'd, I'd actually done it with my mother, and so practiced. And, um, but the memorial was, um, as I said, speeded up because of Catherine's presence, but also because there was going to be so many people, and it wasn't done at the crematorium or anywhere, it was done at the cricket club, so that it was, and we had the wake there. So it, um, it was, it gave us time and, to do it our own way, because we, we didn't have any, Um, time frame or, um, system, so we made it up as we went along and it was absolutely fantastic. I find that's usually the best way. Bit of winging it, that's what we talked about at the it, it's great, yeah, it's, it's, it was, it was, and I think, and grief, I'm certain, is There's so many different levels. I mean, there's obviously parental grief, sibling grief, child grief, partner grief, but I think it's the way it happens. Um, and I mean, what I gather couldn't be more different between you and me, but, um, how it comes out the same in a way eventually that I think of the initial, initial, I think it's very, very different, but initially, but at the end of the day, it does. Yes. And what I've noticed, so I've, this, I've recorded about 110 episodes now, and what I've noticed is the trajectory, the stories are all so different, but the trajectory, because everybody that comes on here has made that choice to live, because you wouldn't come on here and tell your story otherwise. Excuse me. And they There is an arc and every, and there is a sort of a, the way that you have, you have to do it. There is no, you know, the old, the children's book bear hunt, you can't go under it, you can't go over it, you've got to go through it. And you have to, and be that within the first six weeks or be that six years later, at some point it's going to catch you. And I think making peace with this, this acceptance, and you talked about acceptance in your poem, is I'm going to be sad for the rest of my life. But I'm also allowed to be happy, and that sadness can sort of co exist there, and I can bring it out and feel it when I need to. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a, I mean, I know it's incredibly personal as it is. I think it's a very interesting thing. Um, and you get to the point where you can look at it as an interesting thing and it's interesting in people watching and. other people, that is the biggest, human nature is an odd thing, and, and putting grief in the mix brings out very best and the worst. Blimey! I mean, that was the biggest shock, I think, was the um, and now an interest factor rather than a shock, so it's, I just, I, people amaze me in both good and bad. Um, you know, you know, Have you got any, have you got any massive clanger anecdotes that you can share? Oh, is that putting you on the spot a bit? well, travelling, well, the travelling one, um, I got stopped at an airport, you know, went to the X ray machine, um, got stopped at an airport, and Could you stand here a minute, please, madam, by a very young chap on the x ray machine. Could you stand here, I need to get a colleague to come and check you. Now, I was travelling as light as light can be. I had a t shirt on and shorts and backpack had already gone through. And he, and this demonstrates his, uh, lady at a certain age. My age obviously came over, had to be a lady and she had to check under my arms because she thought I was carrying something. Which of course I wasn't, I was just wearing my holiday bra and my boobs sort of spread. I think they thought I was carrying drugs under my left armpit. So I wasn't. And this board was a bit rather red faced when she just sort of nodded and said, It's all right, off you go. So my, my, I have a small, a very short list of, um, things. It's the very last bit of my book, if I may indulge. It's not nearly as long as the last bit. It's, uh. Things I have learnt travelling. You're not allowed to paint your nails on a plane. If a lump of seaweed moves fast, it's not seaweed. There are at least 15 ways to make a ham and cheese toastie good. Never underestimate the persistence of the Australian fly, stroke mosquito, stroke sun. Eating aeroplane food, eating aeroplane meals is just like food Tetris, it takes practice. Your passport will not jump out of your zipped bag so there's no need to check it every five minutes. TV is a hit and miss in hotels and vintage Baywatch is not a healthy binge watch. Never trust the brakes on a hired bike and wear a supporting bra at airports. Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, I think that is leave it on that note. to end this conversation. Thank you so much. Well, I'll share with you, I, and whoever else is listening, I had a Turkish bath in Turkey and they'll get you to take your top off, which was, it was just me and this woman in there. And then when she kind of came to rinse me down, she sort of whipped them up to rinse underneath. Oh girl, this is, this is a new low for me. that's where you find your passport when you Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, I probably could actually, three kids. Um, so on that note, thank you ever so much. This has been a really, really refreshing and interesting perspective on widowhood, and I think you are an admirable woman, and I really look forward to reading your versa, seriously, I've read your story and I, you know, hats off to you and for doing this. I mean, this is, this is such a great thing to do for everybody. I really, really think it's good. And when I looked at these, um, very naively, I just would like to. sort of spread the word as it were. I didn't realise how good these podcasts are and how positive now that the whole stories of cancer, widowhood, anything like this is so much more faced and dealt with head on with humour and love. It's lovely. I admire people like yourself doing the whole project, really do. Thank you. I wanted to kind of give the, a three dimensional perspective of widowhood that, you know, there is more to us than the fact that our partners died. So thank you. I'm always so grateful to hear that. And for anybody who has got any questions for myself or for Judy, please let me know and, um, just keep on keeping on out there. Lots of love to everybody. Goodbye. Goodbye.