Rosie: 0:05

Hello and welcome back to Widowed AF. You're here with Rosie Gilmoss, and I have a guest today all the way from America. We're going to be speaking with David Kanifogel, so welcome, david. Thank you ever so much for joining us today, and really excited to have both an American and a male on the podcast, and I'm also really interested to hear about the eight children that you have. So we will get to that in time, but now hello.

David: 0:35

Hi, so nice to meet you, rosie. We were in that first Facebook Hot Young Widows Club spin-off group, i think five years ago. Yes, we were Yes, and I hope we'll talk about how helpful that was to me and the things I've gotten out of it Yeah, absolutely. We've almost known each other for a long time and it's so nice to be here.

Rosie: 0:51

Yeah, we've all I think I mentioned it before on here. We joined all around the same time. It was a group, an American group. There was a few bricks in there, myself included obviously, and we kind of closed the group, didn't we? So we remained in there together on the same timeline and trajectory, and it's been really. I don't know people doing this. I'm actually getting to speak to people face to face, which is amazing, and I'm sort of thinking why didn't I do this before? But I've always been a bit of a burst of things like FaceTime going to adjust quite quickly now. But yeah, it was a hugely important part of my early days and I'm actually watching people kind of rise back up again. It's really empowering to see, i agree. So, anyway, i will shut up.

David: 1:30

I love the. I love I call it a cohort. I don't know, somehow cohort is a word that feels right. I like that.

Rosie: 1:35

Alumni.

David: 1:36

And I've told people a lot. When they asked me, did you join any support groups, I said no, but I had this weird spin off of a thing that somehow got closed, and that's important, I think. So we almost all were the same timing-ish, and the value that I always say I get out of it and it still do is seeing people talk about their struggles struggles that I don't necessarily have but cannot empathize with And even seeing somebody struggle with something that you're not and saying, oh actually, that's not one of my struggles, Just makes you feel less lonely when you are dealing with the things that you are struggling with.

David: 2:11

So, I think it's a wonderful place that people share things. I remember very early joking with everybody also how sex positive it was. I don't know, That's just a fun memory of what that group was. And it's just been this wonderful thing that I'm still part of and I still check in on every once in a while, and it's amazing People.

Rosie: 2:28

I've never met And actually I agree with you Again, we talk about it on here quite a bit that feeling of the isolation and being the troll under the bridge And within the confines of that group you were sort of safe to share the, i suppose always like we do here, but in little kind of incremental bits on Facebook posts, and share the stuff that you perhaps weren't comfortable talking about with anybody else. And I took it as I love the name. I just thought it was a Much like I'd done with this kind of giving the whole widowhood a little bit of a twist in order to appeal to people like us, which it did.

David: 2:59

Yes, i 100% agree. Yeah, the feeling of shame, like there's something wrong with us, is you can't get around it. And seeing other people again throwing snippets of things that we just had nowhere else to put because no one else could hear those words and really understand or not freak out Like well-meaning people would hear us say something and get very nervous And we hear ourselves say something and we just say that sounds terrible Or whatever it is, whatever like you're, just like the validation of all the crazy things that you hear and see and do, and I mean you're doing that with this podcast. It's amazing. I've sent the link to this podcast to like young widows that knew young widows, that people I get calls and I say, oh, my friend's cousin, whatever lost their young spouse, and so one of the things I give them now, one of the resources, is this podcast Again, just sit, hear people talking about all these things and just feel like there's nothing wrong with you, that this is kind of normal given what's going on.

Rosie: 4:03

I used to feel that maybe it would be too soon for a lot of kind of fresher, newer widows. But the actual feedback I'm getting is that people are finding it really helpful very early on And I wasn't sure how it would land, because obviously I'm coming at this five years in, i'm in quite a good place And that can feel. I mean, i don't know whether I've been quite resentful of that idea back in the very early bit, you know, right in the kind of eye of the store. But I think perhaps because we do acknowledge that the grief travels with you, we're not sort of like oh well, you know, i'm remarried, therefore that part of my life is over and I'm fine. Because that's of course not the case. There's a huge amount of trauma and grief everywhere I go, but I'm also unable to be happy. I don't know. I think there's just this power in knowing that perhaps there's some light at the end of the tunnel when you're walking through this horrible path.

David: 4:47

I think you said that perfectly well. This never gets not complicated.

David: 4:51

I think, And I think that's one of the One of the books that I read when I was a fresh widow was it's okay that you're not okay. And the message that I got from that book, and that has really been the bulwark of my strength, is, of course, this is crazy. What do you mean? No wonder you are a mess and no wonder things feel out of control. And no wonder you have conflicting thoughts and emotions. And when it's at its worst, no wonder it's at its worst. And when it's feeling okay, no wonder it's feeling okay. That's something that is. It never gets uncomplicated, like you said, even now being happy, you can be happy. And also it's still complicated. And I think I think for a fresh widow, sometimes seeing somebody who We all want it to be complicated because it's a way of holding on, i think I think it's a little bit of our not acceptance to say no, i'll never get over this.

Rosie: 5:46

Yeah, absolutely.

David: 5:47

And you feel like I think that's something we all feel. Say that again.

Rosie: 5:51

Anyway, David, we need to get on and hear your story.

David: 5:54

That's okay.

Rosie: 5:54

That's a way for hours. I know Right. Come on then, hit us with it. What were you in this rough property that's full of lovely people club?

David: 6:05

Yes, so I was married to Hindi. Hindi was a wonderful, smart, amazing, thoughtful, bright, energetic woman who I met when we were both in college. She grew up in a neighborhood that not a lot of people went to college. She was the first in her family And she didn't have any friends who went to college. And when she was in college we happened to meet each other very glancingly. I was this friend who did go to college and could text late at night about her weird struggles with her professors. That's how we became friends first. We eventually started dating when Hindi bought tickets to an off-Broadway show. It was actually about I think it was an Irish show or I don't know if it was an American show written about Ireland, called The Lutenants of Inishmore, and we went and we saw that show. She had no friends who kind of wanted to see an off-Broadway play with her And I was up for it And that was, retroactively, our first date. We got married in 2007. We had our first kids in 2010. And those were triplets.

Rosie: 7:05

What.

David: 7:06

Triplets. Yes, i would say it was basically our doctor. Hindi was not sure she was coming off the pill and her period wasn't coming back exactly right, and our doctor gave her something, not telling us that it greatly increased the chance of multi-use.

Rosie: 7:21

Goodness me.

David: 7:23

So, anyway, our triplets were born in 2010. Our next one was born in 2014. And then a little boy in 2016. This whole time, hindi since she was about 16 or 17, was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. Crohn's disease is a chronic inflammatory bowel disease that can be very complicated, and his mom had it and still has it. It can often require medication or surgeries. Hindi never had any of those. She would have stomach pain sometimes, but for the most part it was totally managed.

David: 7:55

One day in 2018, her stomach was hurting And it just kind of kept hurting. We eventually she was feeling dizzy. We eventually decided to go to a hospital. We were in kind of a more rural area of New York And we had to go to the regional hospital because that's the closest we could reach. They did a scan and said she is in massive sepsis. We need to do emergency surgery right now. The surgery itself was kind of technically successful, but she was so septic that within like four hours of the surgery, she died.

David: 8:33

The entire episode took maybe 24 hours. All of our kids were with us and Hindi's parents. The kids went to sleep having a normal last day, yeah, and then in the morning, by the time they woke up. We had a specialist who works for families who are dealing with cancer and all kinds of things, who came and sat down with me and them to tell them what happened. That's it. It was very sudden, very akin to car crash. I've spoken to some other folks. In fact I was on the phone professionally with a man last week who mentioned something about he was inheriting something from his late wife, so of course I started talking to him about widowhood, of course, and so he asked me what, how India died. And I told him and he said that story shouldn't happen in a first world country, like it's so incredibly rare for that to happen so fast, so quick, that a hospital can't take care of it. So it was just a fluke out of nowhere disaster.

Rosie: 9:45

It's absolutely terrifying, isn't it? I mean so, was it related to the condition that she had?

David: 9:51

Yes, yeah, yeah. So essentially her large intestine was inflamed again for this underlying thing and ruptured. And when your intestines rupture, it's like when your appendix burst. You have septic material flooding your entire abdomen just looking to cause problems.

Rosie: 10:11

Oh, the poor woman, and how old was she 32 32. Oh my goodness, 32 and four, five children.

David: 10:20

Five children, yeah, And like prime of her career kinds of things. India had a doctorate in literacy education. She was like a passionate teacher, not just in the classroom but she wrote curricula and was just creative in how teaching should be done. Again, she was also a classroom teacher, but she was like a teacher's teacher and she was just coming into her own. It was really unfair.

Rosie: 10:48

And it's that I mean. Like any death is horrible, but my personal experience, as you will know, is the suddenness of it. As you discuss, you know, and for the children you're, one minute everything is completely fine And the next minute everything is different, and it is, it's everything. They may live in the same house, go to the same school, but they are changed forever And whilst most children can be supported and guided through it, they are not the same as they were. We're not the same. Nobody's the same, are they?

David: 11:19

Yeah, i completely agree. You know, i kind of remember. I remember I think wasn't you saying the story where you started making tea or asking people wanted tea.

Rosie: 11:28

Yeah, offering tea. Yeah, I'm worried I didn't have a gromp. You know three stupid things.

David: 11:32

I remember. So I was in the hospital. The image in my mind is the duck. It's like out of a movie a doctor walking through doors and shaking his head, and Hendy's family was with us. I think my parents were there by that time. Everybody else broke down And I was just filled with. I need to go very calm, this calm thought at this tone I need to go home and take care of my kids now. Like you guys can cry, you guys have the availability to break down right now. I remember asking one of the assistant surgeons, like do you know the stages of grief? Because I just want to know what to expect. Like in that same, like I know I have to take care of business right now. Tone Yeah, just a little. I mean, obviously I had a body that whole day and the whole next day, but yeah, some a certain kind of calmness that, in looking back, looks alien. You just enter that weird mode where nothing's real. You're hoping it's a dream but you know it's not. I remember feeling like I was stumbling through.

Rosie: 12:38

On TV. you know that I was in some sort of made TV drama with lots of awful things happening And I couldn't quite. is that's like a barrier between you and reality? I think it's called disassociation, but I certainly haven't heard of it back then. I just felt very, very strange.

David: 12:54

So yeah, I never liked watching those kinds of TV moments. They always felt too hard before And now I hate them.

Rosie: 13:01

I can barely you know the, the.

David: 13:04

We Hindi and I used to watch Dr Who. I'll throw in the. You know as an. American, we used to like watching Dr Who and after a while maybe after like a year and a half I'm like you know what? that's something I enjoyed. I can keep watching it. I'm going to go back and I went into the episode and it's literally an episode where a young woman gives her life for something. I'm like nope, i had to turn off Dr Who for another year before I could get back to it.

David: 13:32

Yeah, You don't want to deal with you don't want to deal with like the realness of things when you've dealt with something.

Rosie: 13:39

So I didn't watch TV for ages, and even now I don't find I can lose myself in it.

David: 13:45

Quite the same, i watch comedies, almost exclusively now, Like that's all I want to see. I, my first six months of I, when I my first six months of doing nothing, was me on the couch watching the American show Psych, which is a, which is a very light hearted comedy, Sherlock Holmesian kind of thing, And just I. Even now, I just want to watch comedies. That's all I want. I don't give me any drama.

Rosie: 14:11

I can't watch anything scary or gruesome these days, and I certainly can't watch anything with a water based death in it or anything like that. I basically become a massive worse who spends a lot of the time sort of behind a cushion watching things that aren't even that scary.

David: 14:24

So I don't like any medical things people talk about, even sometimes on the show where people are talking about oncology, which I have. No, i have no reference to. The feeling of hospitals makes me so.

Rosie: 14:36

How do you manage that with kids? Because presumably in the last five years you've had to go to hospitals and all medical areas. that's well, you've had more children will come onto that in a minute But did you find sort of stepping back into a medical setting quite traumatic after this?

David: 14:50

Yes, 100%. About three weeks after Hindi passed away, it was the beginning of a school year, and the beginning of school years is when kids share viruses constantly And one of my kids started throwing up And I think that she was probably the four year old I think she was four.

David: 15:05

She started vomiting and she threw up like 12 times. So I took her to the hospital and I brought her in and I said okay, here's my daughter. Also, can you please call someone from social services, because I feel like I have a handle on this right now, but I am very recently traumatized by this, so if you could just have some. But to my memory no one came down, maybe because I did say stay stable that day And just a lot of deep breathing to feel okay in that moment.

Rosie: 15:33

But you know what?

David: 15:33

the fact that you're still get those disaster, you still get those disaster thoughts and, like the imaginations are the worst possible when your kid doesn't answer the phone or something or a friend or anybody I know, and most people who are very close to know that if I've called more than twice, they really have to let me know that.

Rosie: 15:51

just tell me you're alive, that's all I want to know.

David: 15:53

That's all I want.

Rosie: 15:54

Not keeping tabs on you, i just want to know you're alive. Now also there's an obvious difference for you grieving because you've got your five children but you're also a bloke Now. I am very aware of how amazing dads are and you know I'm married to an amazing dad who raised his daughter alone when his wife died. But five kids is a lot. It's a lot for anybody and it's a lot when you're grieving And I suppose I don't know what it's like where you are but over here with you get men, you know, go to, you know, baby groups and stuff. But it's different. You know I can immerse myself in the school, run and chat and go for coffees and do that. You know I did all the baby groups for Tabby when she was little. But is it different for a man? Did you find that it was harder to kind of ingratiate yourself into those circles?

David: 16:38

I think so a little bit, not in terrible ways. So the first thing to say is that I was always an involved dad before Makes a huge difference. I've been like teleworking for many, many years, you know, way before Andy died or COVID or anything. So I was usually the one who was home when the kids got home from school. and then Andy got home about an hour later. So even that just the experience of them walking up for them, of walking off the bus and dad is home that was something new for them. That was very important. The big number one thing I had to learn how to do was cook, because I had no experience with it whatsoever. Andy would ask me to cut a salad and I would kind of understand what that meant, like, how small should the cucumbers be?

David: 17:20

I don't know. Do I peel them, do I not? And it was everything cooking felt like magic and just the magic I didn't have.

Rosie: 17:27

Yeah, so what I did have was Nightmare.

David: 17:30

Yeah, what I did have was a meal train that was set up very early, mostly from parents of kids that make it into school.

Rosie: 17:38

What's a meal train? I don't think I've heard that expression over here.

David: 17:40

Oh, meal train is a wonderful thing. There are like websites where people can just go on and say, okay, i'm making this family a meal on that Tuesday night. We just had it now because we had a baby. Our family and friends in our community is really great about that. If you have something, someone will start a meal train for you and you'll have a week or two or three where people just Let's just take dinner off the plate for this family right now. It's just one less thing for them to worry about it. So our meal train for our baby just ended and it was really so nice. I needed this meal train that I just had for our baby way less because I can cook And yesterday there was no meal train and I made dinner and it's fine.

Rosie: 18:19

Brilliant.

David: 18:21

But it's really helpful And in that moment it was essential. I would not have survived without that, And what I did was slowly learn to cook by remembering things Hindi had done and being like I think this is what's going on, And now I think of myself as a good cook, but not for adults. I don't know how to make adults.

Rosie: 18:39

A fine line in it.

David: 18:41

What I can do is feed a very small army of children wholesome food that.

Rosie: 18:45

I can do easily. A good food, a wholesome food?

David: 18:48

Yeah, exactly, and I thought about writing a cookbook. If I market it to men, it's called How to Cook for Dats. If I market it to women, i think I would call it. My wife died and I had to learn how to cook.

Rosie: 18:59

Brilliant. I like it, i love it.

David: 19:02

So that was some of the domestic stuff and cleaning and laundry. We had had some cleaning help before so that continued. I think I started learning how to do laundry and just surviving and getting all that stuff done. I spent most of my early hours during the day just learning how to run a house and all of the appointments and afterschool things and asking knowing which people to ask for rides to things.

Rosie: 19:26

It's a mental load as well, isn't it That used to be shared between people?

David: 19:29

It's a huge load 100%, 100%.

Rosie: 19:32

It's a lot of things that are effectively called the blue jobs. I don't know the law, things like this, just things that I just would kind of automatically his jobs to do. He controlled. That makes it sound awful, but he was managed. The house finances Right.

Rosie: 19:46

I mean, actually the day he died I started having one of those very frivolous conversations in the school playground. I went oh you know, ben dropped dead tomorrow. I had no idea who to pay the electric to, not knowing obviously that it had already happened. But that level of lack of involvement in the two sides of the household I mean, ben was a very hands on dad but we did things that we did different things you do in a relationship, don't you?

David: 20:08

Yes, 100%. And then I want to get back to also the relationship with the other moms in the community. We all have all of our classes have a what's that chat. Yes, like everyone, you guys have that too. We always call them mom chats And now suddenly it's moms, mom chat and me, and that was always really fun and funny to me And everybody was gracious and thoughtful. I mean not everybody, but almost everybody was gracious and thoughtful. People reach out to see what they could do, people that I didn't really know very well, even just you know, they happen to have a kid in my kid's grade. I'm very grateful for all of those people, mostly the women, because they're the ones who are involved in what was involved.

Rosie: 20:46

It sounds like you have a lot of support, actually a reassuring amount of support, which is really nice to hear. What about sort of emotional support? Because obviously you talk about practical support, but you've got five kids who don't have a mom anymore or mom sorry And you know that's going to leave a mark And you know I don't want to pry too much into your children's business, but it must have been very, very hard to manage their emotions at that time and to reassure them that they were safe and that you were going to be around, because I know I had to do a lot of that.

David: 21:21

That's interesting. I remember you saying that on previous podcasts as well. My kids never expressed that part of things, i don't know why. Two of them. I didn't put them into therapy right away any of them. I think the cues I got from the people I spoke to was see what happens first, see if there's any behavioral changes. So at about six months two of the triplets were having behavioral issues in school. Can I?

Rosie: 21:42

talk about us, the triplets. Are they all boys or girls, or a mix?

David: 21:45

Two girls and a boy, two girls and a boy, and then the next one is a girl and the next one is a boy. Oh nice, they're now 13, 313-year-olds, and eight-year-olds, and a 60-year-old.

Rosie: 21:55

I'm sorry, 313-year-olds, yeah, yeah.

David: 21:59

They're very funny. It's a very In Hindi. I remember that day thinking I was already an interest. My life was already interesting enough. Yeah, i didn't need. You didn't need any more drama, did you? We were already having this crazy, weird good time. Did not need additional weird things circus, freak show, things that happened to us. But okay, so my kids two of the triplets eventually I did put into the talk therapy. I think that served them really well. The other three really have still have not needed anything like that.

David: 22:32

I'll give myself credit for being very good at the beginning, of just talking about Hindi whenever she came up in natural conversation. Whether it's a memory, or I'm feeling sad about it, or this is a weird thing, and oh, if mom was here, i'm just allowing that to happen and not making it weird. Yeah, because for them it was all organic emotions. They were in control of nothing, that they were feeling and just validating that and allowing that to be a thing that you were feeling and that we're talking about. We do that now. I always say we bring up Hindi, we talk about Hindi whenever she comes up in conversation, and that's pretty often Yeah.

Rosie: 23:08

I mean the listeners can't see me nodding my head furiously as you're saying this, because this time has gone on and actually, much like you, in the early days, i was advised by my brother's girlfriend at the time her dad had died when she was young and she had said, please, please, talk about him. We went aloud to, we didn't, and it was awful. So, although it's been difficult sometimes, now I find it very natural to talk about them and Monty, my eldest, is discovering sort of some music that his dad liked, so we often have chats about that.

David: 23:34

That's so great.

Rosie: 23:36

Yeah, i really think it's important because if they feel they can only talk about the person that they've lost when it's heightened emotion and they're really sad, it sort of keeps them in that container almost, whereas what you want is to bring that vibrancy back to life. I mean, sadly we can't literally do that, but you know what I'm telling you by remembering the awesome stuff and the fun stuff and not just the really shitty pain.

David: 23:59

I 100% agree with that. I totally agree. I'm sorry, I don't mean to talk about you.

Rosie: 24:05

It makes an inch from me.

David: 24:07

Daniel, i completely agree with you And I think it actually also helps in those moments of heightened emotion to know. but when you talk about the person all the time, they know that in a heightened emotional state I can also talk about it. What is scary for them or what's potentially an issue is when they're in a heightened emotional state and they still feel like they can't talk about it because this is a taboo topic. That seems like a very scary moment.

Rosie: 24:31

Yeah, And somebody told my eldest quite early on I mean they were well-meaning, it wasn't done with any malice or at home but they told him he was the man of the house and he must look after me. And he then felt very difficult to share his trauma and his feelings and his sadness with me because he didn't want to upset me, which also speaks volumes about the kind of kid I got, But also it was too much pressure.

David: 24:55

I agree again And I think this is something that a lot of men are taught, not just small children who've lost their dad. Men are often. I do think it's a taught thing. I don't think it's a necessarily natural thing. That's why I say men are taught this often. You have to be strong, you have to be caregiver, you have to not have emotional breakdowns. You have to be in control of your emotions at all times. In general, i don't think that's a helpful way to be. No, it's not.

David: 25:22

And then Right, i mean, there's tons of men who we know fit exactly that and none of them are great. And also, when you're dealing with a moment in your own life where you have incredibly strong emotions, if you think you're not supposed to have those, you're going to have a bad time. When I speak to young widowers, right, you know people, like I said, people call me in. Like I say, it's like a bat signal A young spouse passes away. you know, somehow we get called.

Rosie: 25:50

Yep, don't do sign things up.

David: 25:52

Yeah, exactly, especially young widowers. I go to them and I say no, when you're, when you feel like Someone told me, i just feel like I'm going to cry all the time, so cry, that's what you're supposed to do. Right there, your body is telling you to cry. Just do that. You're okay. You are still safe, even when you are broken down. I know you've been trained to think that the opposite is true, that the only feeling of stability is stoicism. That's not going to help you right now.

Rosie: 26:24

No, For sure for young kids.

Rosie: 26:27

Unspent tears can be damaging, can't they? You know that. I've talked about it before that lump you get in. Oh, i know that if I just have a little cry it doesn't turn into a massive cry. You're not going to lose complete control all the time, but the more you bottle it up and the more you try and squash and spit it down, it's going to come out in some way, and that might be kind, but it also might be destructive behaviors, It might be anger. It has to come out and it does find a way, and actually probably the safest way is to have a cry.

David: 26:52

I think so too. I know for myself. I know my grief cry. I still kind of fight it a little bit and then when I do the inhale of breath after I know I've done it, I know it's always That feeling is relief.

Rosie: 27:08

Yeah, When you process something as well. I get this especially.

David: 27:11

Something happens right.

Rosie: 27:12

Like a breakthrough in therapy or something. You feel exhausted but you feel lighter. It's so powerful, isn't it Talking about things? it really is.

David: 27:22

And outpouring the emotion and having big emotions. I think those are all strength things that you can do when you're experiencing something with high emotions?

Rosie: 27:31

Yeah, because actually sometimes I find myself going oh God, i'm sorry, i'm so upset And I think actually most It was his best in the yesterday. You know, of course you're going to be upset and actually you'd be a stone cold psychopath if you felt nothing. So actually feeling things is a reminder that you're human and that you care and that he existed. So you've just got to lean into it. I think Sometimes, sometimes it's easier to say that and to do it Now. David, we have alluded during our chat so far that you have more children. Some would say that five was plenty. David, how many do you have now? Is it eight?

David: 28:08

I just welcome my eighth to the world.

Rosie: 28:11

Tell us a little bit about this because presumably there's a new woman in your life.

David: 28:15

Yes, there is.

Rosie: 28:16

So tell us about that. That's how you met.

David: 28:18

We met on a very gently. Our daughters were in summer camp two years ago. We hadn't met since then. before then, bacheva had been divorced previously with two kids, abby and Jacob. Her Abby and my DeRite were literally two weeks apart, like Lauren actually two weeks to the day apart.

Rosie: 28:39

Now you've got more to it technically then And now right, we call them step twins.

David: 28:42

Yes, 100%, and they happen to be in camp together. And Bacheva sent out on the WhatsApp group for the bunk an invitation to Abby's birthday party And I responded privately to her just to say, no, i didn't know who she was, like no clue. Didn't know she was single, like I had just some kids. Just, she was on my phone at the beginning as Abby's mom And I just responded and she said thank you for responding. Very few of the moms actually responded And we hadn't met. So I'm like well, i'm not. I know, i'm a dad in the group. Here's why she's like oh, i'm divorced. Anyway, we just started chatting and then I met up for coffee And then we got married last March.

Rosie: 29:21

Congratulations.

David: 29:22

Thank you And then welcomed a little baby girl, like I said one month ago. Congratulations We all live in my house, which is still here Just barely contains all of us, I think.

Rosie: 29:35

And is it that person you lived with Hindi?

David: 29:37

Yes, the house I live in with Hindi. Now, the one thing I mean it sounds crazy, but Hindi died right as we were doing some construction, because when we had five kids we didn't fit, so we built it out a little bit. An important thing in my relationship with Bacchava that sounds crazy but is real is that we moved the master bedroom.

Rosie: 29:56

I get that.

David: 29:57

So Bacchara and I do not share the bedroom that was my Hindi's. Like I say, Hindi's ghost does not haunt our new master bedroom. She was never in there. I somehow feel like that's important. I think it's in the book Option B She writes. Cheryl Sandberg writes about how her friend told her to take her husband's photos out of her bedroom. She said like he said this is your space now. It's okay. You're not removing him, You're not forgetting him, But this is your own private space right now And it's okay for you to take your wedding photo out of your bedroom. Not that everybody needs to do that, but I can completely understand how that can just make a room feel different.

David: 30:41

I know Bacchava. She moved into my house and sometimes she'll. She said I don't always feel like this is my house And that's a hard feeling. That's a real thing and a totally valid experience for her And we try to deal with that every day. She's not a widow, so she the way, the things that you and Jonathan can say to each other and immediately understand. Bacchava and I sometimes have to talk that through and feel what that's like And I think she relies on me in a sense and it's scary for her to rely on me to be able to do that in a healthy way and to have a new relationship in a healthy way. She has no control over my understanding or my feelings.

David: 31:21

She's wonderful and trustworthy. So it's been wonderful. She's great.

Rosie: 31:26

And it is quite an undertaking, isn't it? If you're not, i mean even if you are widowed yourself, but if you're not widowed to have a relationship with somebody because there is another person in your marriage, isn't that? you know, hindi is. she's not physically here, but her presence must be everywhere. You know there are five versions of you know her genetics, walking around your home. So, yes, there are three of you in that marriage, and that must be difficult for somebody who's not in the same sort of stratosphere that we are. Does she? I mean, how have you, how has she sort of adapted to it? Does she do reading? or? you know, how do you learn how to support somebody who is grieving but also in love with you? It's a very complex position to be in. You know what?

David: 32:06

that's a great question. You should have her on this podcast.

Rosie: 32:09

Maybe, maybe.

David: 32:11

You know, i don't know all the complicated things that she goes through all the time. You know, obviously she was in a relationship that she didn't want to be in anymore And, you know, for very good reasons left. I respect her privacy and not talk about all that stuff, but yeah, she kind of under. She has expressed at least I don't know what she feels. Right, she's her own person. She has expressed that. She understands that. Right, there's this third person. I don't know what she feels and thinks. All I know is what I can do, and what I can do is to the best that I can think is make her feel as loved as I love her.

Rosie: 32:46

Yeah.

David: 32:46

Which is as much as I have, yeah.

Rosie: 32:49

And you do. I was sorry. We're both talking over each other now.

David: 32:55

Yeah, we're great.

Rosie: 32:57

I've always said that when you're widowed and you're widowed when you are in love with somebody it's different because you don't have that tap switch off. You still love them But in a weird sort of way you haven't got the kind of bitterness and resentment that comes from falling out of love. So actually you haven't been damaged in the same way. It's a very I'm sort of skirting around it because I don't want to compare divorce and death or say little things. But you know they're equal, because of course they're not. But I do think you do come into any relationship, perhaps with a slightly more open heart. You're very cautious, of course, because, particularly with children, you are potentially inviting, you know, virtual strangers into their lives. But I don't know, i don't know, i think it's, it's different. I think you do have this kind of openness and receptivity. Is that word to love? I don't know, i think that's.

David: 33:47

I think you're pontificating. Well, dating, i think, as a widow is very different than dating as a divorce person. I think this is gonna sound cruel, but I mean it with all the love in the world. No part of us thinks there's something wrong with me or I did that wrong. Right, we were not. We're no longer in a relationship by the hand of the universe, and when we're looking for the next one, we will think that hey, we're actually pretty good at this. We've done this once. We can do it again. It takes time to get to think that and be open to it. I think anybody who's divorced a little thing inside them goes what did I do wrong? Yeah, how did I get myself caught up in that? I think that I'm saying that with love, because that's a hard feeling to have to deal with. I do think it is real for many, many people.

Rosie: 34:31

Now I've got to.

David: 34:32

I mean It's something to go over.

Rosie: 34:34

We've had a couple of guests on who've had this very complicated grief as well, where not only has their person died, but then they found out that actually they were living a different life or they were having an affair, and so then you kind of get the bitterness and the grief, which is a real melting pot of emotions, and probably not for this conversation, but it's Yeah, we're talking about the complexities of grief And I think that must be awful to have to contend with that. How do you move forward? How do you trust anybody? I mean, i don't have answers for that, but I know some of my guests have lived in it. It's very difficult.

David: 35:07

Yeah, in general, how to move on or how to love again, these are all going to be complicated.

Rosie: 35:12

Yeah, and not, everybody does Not, everybody does Not everybody does, and that's fine.

David: 35:17

It takes time to think when you're going to notice that you're ready for it. If you are, if you want it. Some people don't. It's complicated, it's just complicated.

Rosie: 35:25

David, i've just clicked over and had a quick look at the Excuse me your application which you sent in. Absolutely I can't even see when it came in, but it says on here that you have a baby on the way, so actually your baby's been born. There we go, isn't that lovely?

David: 35:35

Perfect.

Rosie: 35:37

But I also wanted to just quickly ask you about your year-long adventure living in Israel. So you took all the five children and you went to Israel.

David: 35:44

Tell me about the cities, yes, yes. So right before COVID hit here, which was like March 2020, hindi had always talked about doing an adventure, of living in Israel for a year.

Rosie: 35:55

That's something that some people in our community do for Jewish.

David: 35:58

But that's really the connection And as that 2020 started, I was feeling very strong as a parent, as a widower. I just felt very strong like, oh, we can do this. I remember thinking before COVID hey, life is a little short, right, This is something widows experience life is a little short. There's no time like the present to do something big and adventurous, a meaningful adventure. I'm not talking about like chasing adrenaline, but doing something really interesting and meaningful and fun, Something that you might do with yourself.

David: 36:33

Yes, exactly. And then when COVID hit, israel happened to be a little more open than the United States, than New York was, at least where I am, and I just started the paperwork and it took some time to get a visa for everybody to go. I rented a house, site unseen. I had, like one friend of my brothers who lived in this neighborhood that I thought will look cool. It was on the beach in Natanya was the city name, and I just went, i just took the kids and, like guys, we're going to do this, we're going to have a great time. Will we stay there? I don't know. Will we come back? I don't know. I rented out my house Like I found a renter. I found a place to rent there. It was just this crazy set of details to work out to take five children internationally for a year.

Rosie: 37:16

Especially during COVID as well.

David: 37:18

During COVID, where they don't really speak the language I speak enough to get by there, and it was a wild ride between COVID and school closures and the neighborhood and me feeling. In the end I felt like I was a little burnt out, just as a parent. I'm like let me go back to New York, get my feet sturdy again, let me feel as strong as I did before I left, and then I can decide whether maybe make it a permanent move. I don't know. That summer was when I met Bacheva. The reason I hadn't met Bacheva the year before was because I was in Israel and she had gone divorced and moved out here and enrolled her in school.

David: 37:54

So it just happened to be that this one adventure worked and ended in a way that no one would have expected. And it ended because a different adventure started, the adventure of blending the family and building this interesting life together and figuring out whatever happens next. It was It went great. The whole story is a great story. That's the thing that I think about and look back on Great memories of me and the kids in Israel.

Rosie: 38:23

What I'm hearing as you're talking is the way you describe your life as a series of adventures. I think that's really amazing, because not all adventures are easy and not all ventures are even pleasant. Some are terrible and traumatic and destructive, and losing Hindi was that adventure. But you had this wonderful adventure before with her and then the children, and then you've had these adventures since going to Israel and meeting back to you. Is it that Chiba? I'm conscious of my pronunciation, but Chiba.

David: 38:51

Close enough, but Chiba Close enough, close enough, yeah, yeah.

Rosie: 38:55

And, like me, you must reflect on your life sometimes and think, yes, i've experienced an incredible, awful tragedy, but I've also been very lucky and I have loved and been loved by two people who lightened and brightened my life and world in immeasurable ways. And to hear you talk about your new relationship and your blended family, i can hear that in your voice that you're so grateful to have been given this other chance at having a different life, but a beautiful life nonetheless.

David: 39:22

Yeah, it's something that reminds me of something that Chiba would say about dealing with me as a widower. Is that? yeah, maybe if you had to choose a story, i wouldn't have chosen it this way from the beginning, but, given today, i can choose whatever story happens next. So, given the circumstances that we met, what an amazing outcome, what a wonderful thing that we've done and are continuing to do.

Rosie: 39:49

Just to ask you this is purely ready for my own sort of nosiness, because I'm obviously a stepmother and John's a stepfather to my children How did the children adjust to this sort of step parenting dynamic? Was it pain-sailing or It's still ongoing.

David: 40:03

We're still blending constantly. We've both done a great job. We'll say that, yeah, because why not give us both funds of credit? You know there's still dynamics that are not seamless, but of course they're not seamless.

Rosie: 40:14

But that would be the same in any family. This is, you know, the It would be in any family exactly.

David: 40:18

So even the DaRid and Abbey, who are now eight-year-olds, step twins. they'll do things that to me just remind me of my multiples that I already have And I just go no, this is totally normal multiple at behavior.

Rosie: 40:33

Yeah, i'm much like a patron Holly who am I to that at the same age And actually I'm going to start calling them step twins. I love that They, they bicker, they fall out, they make up. But I look at the other biological siblings. Totally the same, totally the same.

David: 40:46

Yes, People always ask how does everybody get along? And I say like siblings, which means sometimes they kill each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's so cool Yeah.

Rosie: 40:52

Yeah, so if you haven't heard somebody screaming because they've been pitched discreetly, then you're doing it wrong, right, exactly? Oh well, david, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you and to hear your story properly, and I really love the way that you talk about both of your wives. Have you started talking, calling back Cheva, the alive wife yet? Because I don't know? No, i have not.

David: 41:15

I did tell her that that's what you do and she made a face. I'm like I'm not going to do that. I do. I think I posted on our Facebook group a few weeks ago I guess it was my anniversary, i can't remember, and no, i think it was my first anniversary of marrying back Cheva And I wrote posted on the page about something And I wrote like I don't know what to call a Hindi still First wife sounds so.

Rosie: 41:38

It does, doesn't it? And like try and run.

David: 41:42

Late wife acknowledges death. I don't want to do that. Dead wife is a good part. Yeah, dead wife is way too.

Rosie: 41:49

I find that a lot of people talk about it. I say first husband, first yeah, and then once people know I just wrote, first husband is Ben. But yeah, it is a tricky one because you, by saying late or dead or belated, what's the word I'm looking for? Deceased, i don't know, i'm pulling words out of my head here. You automatically then pull that spot right onto you, and I personally feel the obligation to explain with far more information than I probably need to. But sometimes you just don't want to do this Sometimes.

David: 42:18

I know, and sometimes you do want to. I don't know why. I know you've had this. I think you shared also, like sometimes you just pull out the whole story.

Rosie: 42:26

Oh, totally Yeah. sometimes.

David: 42:28

But for no reason. You're not sure why you needed to do that, but you did it.

Rosie: 42:31

But maybe we needed to say it. Hey, maybe that's some sort of primal need to say it. Well, thank you ever so much for coming on, and thank you ever so much for sharing your story and for talking so openly about what it's like to be a man grieving the loss of his wife and how to support many, many children through. And it's also nice to talk to somebody whose life sounds even more chaotic than mine.

David: 42:55

Thank you so much, rosie and Jonathan, and I'll say again, you guys are literally helping people with this. It's also fun to listen to And I listen sometimes at night and just cry as I hear you guys talking to people or hear other people's stories, and it helps me personally And I'm sure it helps a lot of people.

Rosie: 43:13

Thank you, it's so lovely to hear that And I wish you every happiness in your wonderful patch-about life And I look forward to seeing the children grow up on Facebook and things like that. So once again, thank you for joining us And to everybody else you take care of yourselves And I'll see you guys next time on Black Hole Friday.