Lulu: 0:00

welcome to web. Sorry. Start again. Oh, I've had too many coffees.

Rosie: 0:37

Hello and welcome back to Widowed af. We are delighted to have you back with us today. It's been quite the week actually because we, we obviously broadcast this very, very personal, very powerful letter, which Lou read very beautifully. I would've read. Three times at speed. So thank goodness you have to listen to the chipmunks. But it's, it's really had an impact on people, hasn't it?

Lulu: 1:00

It has been really interesting to see the response. We were a bit nervous about the response really. We didn't know how this was gonna land with people, the subject matter, you know, which is a shame, isn't it? Cuz you know, it's death is part of life, which is something we say all the time. But this guest was so brave in sharing her story and honestly, I was honored to be the one sharing.

Rosie: 1:23

I said in a little Instagram video prior to it that you do feel almost like a little bit of a voyer, don't you? Because it's. It's an insight into your world. I mean, we also described widow hit as being this club that, you know, only very exclusive members get to join. But this is like a next level because I've never spoken to anybody that has taken somebody to dignitas. So it was all completely new to me and I just. It was left with so many questions about why, why is this not allowed? Why, why are we having to go to such lengths? And it just, yeah, my mind was kind of reeling in and I must have listened to you read that about four or five times because I couldn't, there was so, so much more I wanted to know. And actually I have spoken to Ellie from Dignity and Dying, and we're gonna play the interview in a bit because I was able to ask her questions and it, it really was hugely beneficial.

Lulu: 2:14

I can't wait to hear that interview. Actually, I was unable to join Rosie on this, but Rosie had some very black and white questions for Ellie and I hear that she answered them really, really well. So I can't wait for you to hear that as well.

Rosie: 2:26

Yeah, she just had some really interesting information. I asked her at one point whether she thought that there would be a change in, in the law in our lifetime, you know, assuming I'm gonna go another 40 years, and she just said straight back to me. You know, much sooner than that. So I, yeah, I, I mean the, the public opinion is very much that this needs dressing, but it's just, it's very difficult to turn the tides in, in parliament because we're dealing with you know, an older, often male, no offense to the males, the listening group, but it, it's a different generation to, to ours and, and perhaps, you know, he's going to take a new wave to kind of push this through.

Lulu: 3:06

It is. And you know, we are an aging population and the number of illnesses that lead peoples to, to lose their life before they've even died is shocking. You know, I, for instance, I'd never heard of Louis body dementia, which this lady's husband suffered from,

Rosie: 3:23

Nor had I, even though Robin Williams had it, which is so surprising you'd think that we would've all known about it.

Lulu: 3:29

And it manifests in loads of different ways. So, you know, for, for this guy, he, it sounds like he suffered terribly with it, and it really morphed his personality and his character. It, it might not do that to another person. So the application process that he must have gone through with dignitas, It was extensive, so much evidence required that that was an eyeopener for.

Rosie: 3:52

Yeah, and Ellie does talk about what they're campaigning for and the, the levels of kind of, I guess, security almost that you would have to go through in order to be eligible. It, it's extensive. I think even a, she said it's even a judge has to be involved. So this is not a sort of, you know, off the calf decision. An interesting, she also said in, in, I think it's in Oregon quite a large percentage of people who are given this prescription for the barb. Don't take it. It's just having the knowledge that it's available to you, and I think you can, that comfort of knowing that you had some autonomy over how your life was going to end, that sometimes might just be enough.

Lulu: 4:30

That's really interesting. I can't wait to hear this discussion with with Ellie.

Rosie: 4:34

Yeah, we talk a lot about, secrecy and shame when you are widowed and particularly, you know, your loss, the kind of horrific circumstances of John's death. And you end up feeling very ashamed But of course, if you are now fearing legal retribution and you know, Public, outcry and people can be quite vicious particularly on the internet.

Lulu: 4:54

I can, I hadn't even considered. That there would be criminal implications for this. It just seems crazy.

Rosie: 5:02

And it sounds like it's very, very rare and very unlikely that you will be prosecuted, but the length, you may still be investigated, you may still have a criminal record and a caution and things like that. There's, there's, there's, imagine having to carry that as well as everything else. I It's horrible, isn't it? It's just creating more pain for more people when really it, it seems to me to be the, the humane option.

Lulu: 5:26

Absolutely. I mean, you know, nobody could have put up with, well, what this lady had to put up with a shocking, you know, physical abuse. Whilst knowing that that wasn't really the man that she knew, it's heartbreaking.

Rosie: 5:41

There's one, one quote that I, that really sort of resonated with me. And, and she says that she was frightened for her life, but she still loved him and that it must be just such a conflict of emotion. And also for him, you know, because he had these moments of lucidity, so he would come back to being him and be aware of what he had done or see the bruising, and that must have been torment for him.

Lulu: 6:04

He had such a quick trajectory from being, you know, a senior police officer, a judo instructor, you know, a big guy, a big personality to succumbing to this horrific illness. He, he must have been so frightened himself.

Rosie: 6:20

And you must feel like you, like a jekyll and hyde, you must feel you have no control over this monster that you become. And I just, I that, that must be so scary and you, you can see why somebody would just not want to inflict that on, on people that they love and, and not want to suffer it themselves. Yeah, it is.

Lulu: 6:36

Indeed.

Rosie: 6:37

You can really hear the desperation in her, in her letter, can't you? And in, and you can almost hear it from him. It's, yeah. And I, I'll tell you what's the other clip that got me was at the very end where she said that, he says he's as ready as he'll ever be. And I just thought, oh my goodness. Like the courage to take that final step. It makes you think how awful it must have been enabled to enable him to be able to do it. Does that make sense? Because he must have been so frightened, but the reality of living with that condition must have been even more frightening.

Lulu: 7:09

Yeah, there's so much mystery around these clinics around Dig Task Clinic, and, you know, he's gone through months of paperwork. He, he kind of almost knows what to expect. He's been on the plane, he's been on a boat around Lake Zurich. He's ready, but he, he never would've known. Whether he was really ready until he sat on that sofa and they gave him that glass of barbiturates. And that moment must have been so frightening because one of the rules is that your partner can't hand it to you. They can't, they can't hold you while you are drinking it. And they, they can't even hold you afterwards. And that it's just, that's horrific. That's one of the things that's surely got to change.

Rosie: 7:49

Yeah. And one of the things Ellie mentions as well is that because of the, the, the complex regulation around this and the added complication of getting to Switzerland, y a lot of people are kind of missing their opportunity, so they want to do this, but they're leaving it that little bit too late. Or the alternative is they're going a little bit too early because they're so frightened of the alternative that they're going you know, and it might only be a matter of weeks or even months. Too early, but they, the, what they're kind of campaigning for is this, it's all, it's actually about living as well as dying because it's enabling you to live your final days without this fear of, of what's going to happen to you and enable you to kind of embrace and, you know, really kind of get the most out of the, your final time on earth. And from everything we've, we've heard from, from our guests and all. So from sort of other, other people I've spoken to and heard from, it, it, it sounds peaceful. It sounds like a good death. And I know that sounds a, a sort of oxymoron, but we, we are all going to go eventually and don't, we always want to go peacefully surrounded by people that we love.

Lulu: 8:49

Absolutely. It's really interesting the point about the timing and I, I hadn't sort of figured that out because this guy seemed to get the timing. Right. In many ways it was, it seemed to be the perfect timing. I mean, ideally his wife wouldn't have had to go through everything that she'd gone through and, but at least when he did go, he was a hundred percent ready. But the idea of people doing it too early is quite frightening. But then also leaving it too late. How do you get that timing right?

Rosie: 9:18

I don't know. I don't know. And there is she does talk about another another campaign group who are called, I think it was Compassion in Dying when she mentions it in the interview, which we're going to play in a moment anyway. And about how you can register your wishes and make something called a living will, and they can assist you to do this. Nobody can guide you on assisted dying that is not allowed. But they can, they can help you make your wishes known. So anyway, with that, I think we'll go into this interview and hear what Ellie from Dignity and Dying has got to say on the matter. I'd like to introduce you all to Ellie Ball from the campaign group, dignity in Dying. Hello Elliot. Welcome to Widow.

Ellie: 9:55

Hi Rosie. Thanks so much for having me

Rosie: 9:57

Thank you for joining us. We're very grateful. We all watched this documentary the Pru and Danny documentary, which I know that your organization had some involvement in. And obviously you would've heard our episode on Monday where we read out that very emotional and very powerful letter from guest 11. So if you wouldn't mind just telling us a little bit about what your organization is, what you do within it, and, and kind of what, what your aim is.

Ellie: 10:19

Sure. So as you said I'm from dignity and dying and we are a campaign group that's powered by more than half a million people who agree that the law unassisted dying in this country badly needs to change because without this choice, the reality is that dying people suffer. and without change they will continue to do so. And you know, it's interesting, you know, what you're doing with your podcast and your listeners because widows really are one of the groups who understand more than most that the law has to change. You know, many have. Seen partners die horribly despite the best efforts of end of life care. Some like your, your previous guests have had to go overseas to help their loved one have the death that they wanted. And perhaps even more tragically, we know that hundreds of turn ill people are taking their own lives. At home and their partners have to deal with the aftermath of that and the lasting trauma. You know, I speak to people all the time who have P T S D because of the deaths that they've witnessed and the guilt that they feel that their loved one wasn't able to have the death that they wanted. And in fact, just preparing for this interview, one woman really sprung to the front of my mind, Anne Whaley, who is not a likely campaigner. She'll admit that she's never campaigned on anything in her life, and she became one in her seventies when. Her husband was dying. His name was Jeff. He was in his eighties. He had motor neuron disease, which is an, a neurological terminal illness that is incredibly cruel. It robs people of their ability to walk, to move, to breathe, to swallow, to communicate. So he was almost totally paralyzed. By the end like your previous guest, he felt his only option to control his end and to have a good death was to go to Switzerland. And he. Painstakingly organized the whole thing himself specifically to protect Anne from, from any recriminations. So he had to prove through medical reports, et cetera, that he was terminally ill, that he was fully compos mentis, that he was making his own decision of his own free will, that he understood the, the RAM ramifications of his decision. He had to prove his identity, go through all these doctor's assessments and cough up upwards of 10 grand. So the Dignitas option is not an easy one. Not an option that most people have access to in this country. And it was only in the final two weeks when he lost the use of his hands that Anne had to step in and book the final flight in hotel. And it was those acts, which meant that she was, she ended up in her local police station being questioned for So less than two weeks before they were meant to travel, they got a knock on the door. Out of the blue from police and social services, and someone had anonymously reported her. They still to this day don't know who it was or what the motivations were, but that blew their world apart. You know, Jeff was terrified that he might be stopped from traveling and in fact, he started starving himself from that moment cuz he was so determined to have control over his death. Obviously they were terrified that Anne would be. You know, arrested that she'd be landed in jail. And the reality of the current law is that you could go to jail for up to 14 years for helping someone take their own life. Unfortunately just a couple of days before they were supposed to travel, it was dropped, but Anne still lives with essentially a criminal record. She was interviewed under police caution. And this is the reality of the current law. You know, not only are we denying dying people choice over their death, but we're forcing them to essentially choose between suffering Switzerland or suicide. And then we're criminalizing acts of compassion. By loving family members who are really stuck between a rock and hard place. They're, they're being forced to choose between watching someone suffer against their wishes or breaking the law and then being punished as a result of that. So it's so clear that the law has to change, and our job is to show parliament what's really going on under the current law and tell stories like Ann's

Rosie: 14:17

So presumably people coming forward with their stories is very, very important. And even when it's done anonymously, it still carries a huge amount of power. And you touched there about the legal ramifications. And this is obviously the reason, the primary reason why our guests chose anonymity. And it's a recurring question that came up cuz we did ask some of our listeners to come in with questions. I think three people asked about this legal aspect because people can't fathom how you could. And I know that the risk is actually, it's very small risk, isn't it? And it, but it is, you know, it is a risk and, how are people still being prosecuted or living under the fear of prosecution for, as you say, doing something that is, is, is showing immense humanity.

Ellie: 14:59

Exactly. I mean, the, the, the current law has so many ramifications, not just for a dying person who wants the option, but for everyone around them. And as I say, particularly their partner it's rare for successful prosecutions for helping someone. to get to Switzerland, but it's still a risk. And as I say, police investigations are, are actually quite common. You know, it's rare in Ann's case for the police to get involved before someone travels, but I've spoken to lots of people who, you know, they've, they've gone to Switzerland, their loved one has, has got their final wish. So, you know, that's something they've been able to support, their loved one to have a good death. And, and people unanimously say, Positive. Those, those final moments are that it's actually a really beautiful, peaceful death where they're able to hold their loved one ha loved one's hand. They just simply drink medication and they fall asleep and they die usually within minutes. It's really peaceful death, and it's so much better than the deaths that many people are facing otherwise from cancer, from motor neurone disease, and other illnesses. But then, their partner, their wife, their girlfriend, whoever has to come back on the plane with an empty seat next to them

Rosie: 16:14

And It's very quick. It's a matter of hours, isn't it?

Ellie: 16:17

Yeah, it can, it can be even quicker than that. And I've had people come home and the police are waiting for them, and they then under investigation often for the best part of a year, that's putting their grief on hold. It's adding to the trauma. It's, it's just a situation that could be completely avoided if we had. That safe legal option in this country. Everything could be out in the open. You know, loved ones wouldn't be in a position where they're having to break the law and you know, people don't wanna die in a foreign country. they want to die in their own homes surrounded by their loved ones. They just simply want to, you know, gather the people that are important in their life and fall asleep. And it sounds like, you know, a Hollywood death or a distant utopia, but it's not, you know, this option is legal in so many countries around the world now, and there's no reason it can't be legal in this country. And that's what we're fighting.

Rosie: 17:11

I listening to you say that it's so true, isn't it? That is that kind of Hollywood, the, the perfect death if such a thing exists. And also hearing you talk about widows and you know, the kind of firsthand experience we have of death now, both Luda and my, my husband, we, they die very suddenly. Which obviously carries with it a, a whole set of trauma. my husband's wife died of, of cancer, and she died a horrific, painful death. You know, she was medicated and you know, the pain was kept at bay. But to keep the pain at bay, she lost her cognitive function, so she wasn't able to be aware at the end. And, and, you know, the personality changes these people are seeing at the end. And a again, I guess I'm, I'm in my early forties, it's not something I'd even really thought about or consider. And as we get older and, you know, our parents' generation get older, I suppose it's becoming more of a an issue at the forefront of our minds because I guess we, we start to think our own mortality and, you know, we are, none of us are going to come through this unscathed are we? And having control of ultimately how we end our lives. It, it, it feels, it feels just so natural and like almost unbelievable that we're not really kind of having this debate properly yet. And I did, I mean, I did a little bit of nerding and research and I know it's 84% of the British public are in favor of the choice for termin ill adults. And we left Europe for less. Right.

Ellie: 18:28

Exactly, exactly. It's, it's one of those issues where it's an interesting campaign to work on because we're actually not trying to convince the public. The public are already overwhelmingly on site. You know, as you said, if you walked outside your house and asked your neighbors what they thought, 7, 8, 9, and 10 of them would say, we agree the law has to change. We think that terminally ill people should have the choice to die on their own terms. Parliament is catching up. You know, doctors are catching up. This is really a matter of, of when, not if for the uk and we've got an assisted dying bill being considered in the Scottish parliament jersey and the island of man are considering it. Then our neighbors, the Republic of Ireland, are examining it. France are examining it really. Westminster is surrounded by progress on all sides, and there's. an inquiry into in, into assisted dying, excuse me, in the House of Commons. So this is something that politicians realize they can't ignore. And really the UK is a crossroads at the moment. Parliament can decide to do nothing, and that is a choice. To look at the evidence and decide, no, we're gonna turn a blind eye to the suffering that's going on at the moment. Or it can decide to listen to the public. It can examine the evidence and decide, no, we have to act. And you know, this isn't a step into the unknown. There is all this overseas experience that we can draw from. The law that we are campaigning for in the UK is very tightly limited to just people who are already dying so that they can have that choice. It's for people who are fully mentally competent. It's for adults and it's really about. People having the power to shorten and ease the dying process. It's shortening death. It's not shortening life

Rosie: 20:10

Yeah. And that's quite an important thing, isn't it? Because the, what you are campaigning for is the favor of choice terminally ill adults because there is a difference isn't there, between a assisted dying. Assisted suicide, and that's quite an important distinction to make here isn't.

Ellie: 20:23

Yes. So as I say, we're talking about really assisted dying, does what it says on the tin. It's about someone who's dying, who doesn't have a choice over whether they live or die. Their illness is already. Taken that choice away from them. So the people I speak to every week who desperately want this option and are denied it are people with end stage cancer with illnesses like motor neuron disease, Huntington's, Parkinson's, neurological illnesses, C O P D. You know, they've only got months left to live and they just want control over how, when, and where their death happens. And that is different from assisted suicide, which is. about people who are unbearably suffering, and obviously we have huge sympathy for anyone who's suffering against their wishes, but those people, terminally ill, so they're not dying and assisted dying or having this choice would shorten their life rather than just shorten their death. And this is distinct again, from euthanasia, which your listeners might, might be familiar with, where again, it's. Involves people who are suffering but not necessarily dying. They might be suffering, not necessarily even just from physical illnesses. And euthanasia is where a third party, usually a doctor administers the medication to you. Whereas with assisted dying, it's completely controlled by the person. So if I had terminal cancer and I wanted control over my end, I would approach a doctor and ask for it. Two doctors would have to assess me to make sure that I was within my final months. That I was over 18, that I was fully mentally competent to make the decision that I understood all the options in front of me, that I understood the ramifications. A judge also would have to look at my request and, and assess whether I was making a decision of my own free will. So there's a huge amount of checks and balances and safeguards that are just absent, absent, absent from the law at the moment. And if, and only if I met all of those criteria, and if. The doctors and judge were satisfied that I was making my own decision. I would then be granted a prescription for medication, which I could take at a time and place of my own choosing. So most people I imagine, would want to do that in their own bed. They could decide the point that their suffering had become too much to bear. They could gather their family and say goodbye. And it's really interesting when you look at the data from the us. So this option is available in 11 states in America. including Oregon, that's had it for 25 years. It's, it's worked really safely, effectively there. And that's really the model that we're looking at in the uk. So a third of the people who go through the process and are given the medication don't end up taking it.

Rosie: 22:58

Oh wow, that's, I didn't know that. So they go through the process, they have the medication and then they make the choice not to. Is that just a human instinct to survive? Do you think this kind of inability to end your own life sometimes.

Ellie: 23:09

Well, I think it's, it's probably more about the fact that it's so much about peace of mind and actually assisted dying is about living as much as dying. And so many people I speak to say, you know, if I knew I had the option, if I was really suffering at the end, it would, it would help me get on with living in the present because I wouldn't wake up every day terrified over. How much I might suffer or when, when the end might come. It's about, you know, really an insurance policy against unbearable suffering and that benefits everyone regardless of whether we might ultimately choose it. It's about, you know, just knowing that the option is there if and when you need it. Obviously, we all hope we don't. have to use it, but knowing it's there is a huge source of comfort and, and empowerment. You know, it, this is about putting power back in, in patients hands. You know, doctors and the medical profession as a whole has historically had a lot of power. There's been a lot of, of, of paternalism in the medical profession and, and that is changing. but it's not changing fast enough. You know, people need to have control over decisions. We have control over so many medical decisions throughout our life. You know, we can plan births, but we can't really properly plan our deaths and, and that's what an assisted dying law would, would really help with.

Rosie: 24:26

And actually you say that, you know, even things like being able to choose an elective c-section is quite a relatively new right, for women, isn't it, at birth. So when you think we, we are still fairly new in this kind of cradle to grave, you know, having autonomy over how you bring a, bring life into the world and ultimately how you end it. I'm wondering if you know what the. Kind of the decision makers are getting older. I'm wondering if as, as this happens, whether we might see a change because, you know, they're not stupid. They know what end of life entails. And none of us can outrun it. So I wonder if, you know, perhaps people getting older, we might see a shift in opinion, but it is, it is so interesting really that. There's so much kind of resistance. What do you think the resistance is? I know, I know that there's, talk about the Hippocratic Oath. Do you No harm, but you know, surely letting people to, to letting people die in, in pain is, is doing more harm. And I'm just kind of, is it, is it a religious thing? What, what is the real block that we've got here? Why are we not, why is it not further down the line?

Ellie: 25:19

Well, there definitely has been a huge shift in the mood in Parliament. So the last assisted dying bill that was debated in the House of Commons, you know, coming up to eight years ago, was defeated by quite a large margin, even though vast majority of the public are supportive. So there is a disconnect between the public and the people who are meant to represent them. But that gap is definitely closing. We've seen a huge shift in opinion among mps, also among doctors. I think the last time it was debated MPS could hide behind the idea that, oh, doctors, doctors don't support this. But that is definitely changing, that the medical organizations in this country, the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Physicians, several other royal colleges, they've dropped their opposition and they're now neutral. On whether the law should change. We know that so many surveys of doctors and other clinicians have showed that actually there's a huge range in opinion. So Doc, so mps can't claim this is something that doctors don't support. That's just not true anymore. And. What really is, I think the single biggest factor in changing an MP's mind is either whether they've had their own personal experience or whether they have met a constituent who is told their own powerful story. And as I say, widows have been some of our most powerful and passionate campaigners, not because they wanted to be, because they feel no choice but to use their pain to try and change the law so that no other family has to go through the, the pain that that they've endured. You know, I mentioned Anne Wavy earlier. There's a case that actually some of your listeners might be aware of from a couple of years ago. Mavis Eccleston was a woman in her eighties whose husband Dennis had terminal bowel cancer and they'd been together best part of six decades. They were devoted to each other completely, and he was suffering horribly as he died despite, you know, access to end of life care. And we know that end of life care is brilliant in this country, but it doesn't. Relieve all suffering for everyone. So he was, he was dying and in a huge amount of pain. One evening he was howling an agony like an animal. Mavis later said, and he had been begging her for months to help him die, and she was terrified and she desperately didn't want to lose him. But that night she realized how serious he was and she said, okay, Dennis, you have to tell me what to do, but I will help you and, and I'm going with you. and I think because she was terrified of the, of what would happen next and of living without him. So this couple in their eighties. Took an overdose of medication that Dennis had been stockpiling. No idea what they were doing. No idea if it would work, no idea how much to take. And, and that's the thing, it's actually very hard to take your own life. There's no information out there, rightly so, but that this couple in their eighties are, you can imagine, you know, late at night alone in their house, having to keep it a secret from their family. They tried to take their lives. Dennis died, but Mavis survived and she. Taken from hospital in her nighty to police

Rosie: 28:18

Oh. my God. Oh.

Ellie: 28:21

with murder and manslaughter. And that is, that is the reality of the law in this country and their, their daughter, joy has become one of our most. Passionate and feisty and incredible campaigners. And her telling her parent story has changed so many hearts and minds. And that's what we have to do is shine a light on what's really happening in this country. And you know, I was really moved by the guest whose letter you read out in, in the last episode, and for a very fortunate few Switzerland's an option, but not for most people. Most people in this country don't have 10 grand.

Rosie: 28:58

That was going to be one of my questions actually is, you know, the financial inequity really, because if you've got 10 grand squirreled away you can afford to go to Switzerland, and actually on that note, why are, why Switzerland? Because I know that it, you can, it's an option in places like Holland as well. Why? Why do the Brits tend to go to Switzerland.

Ellie: 29:17

So the Swiss law is actually really one of the only laws that allow foreign nationals to access it. So, I mean, technically you could go to the Netherlands, but you, I believe, need to have a registered GP there. And actually because the law in the Netherlands is a euthanasia law, so it's a doctor administer administering the medication to you. If you as a loved one were to help someone. have an assisted death. In Holland, you could actually be charged with manslaughter rather than assisted suicide. So yeah, the charges, the charges are more serious and it's much more difficult to access. Whereas for Switzerland, they do allow people who were, you know, foreign nationals to go there. you know, people have heard of Digitas. There are other options, but you know, it's an incredibly difficult process. Not only is it hugely expensive, but there is a huge amount of planning that goes into it. It takes months. So if you've got to the point where you are dying, you probably don't have enough time. You probably aren't well enough to make the journey. You know, getting on a plane when you're dying of cancer is no mean feat. People often end up going before they're really ready. I've had a couple of cases. Well, more than a couple, but a couple that stand out recently of women who have gone alone because they've been so terrified of putting their family at risk. So imagine dying in a foreign country alone without anyone that you love holding your hand.

Rosie: 30:39

when they really, they could be there in that circumstance because, and that's really the, I suppose I'm gonna say beauty because I think you, if you have a, a good death, then there's. A beauty in it. And I, I think it was on that Pru de documentary, they were talking about sort of having a funeral before somebody died and everybody coming and telling them, you know, what they meant to them and being able to have this kind of conversation before the debilitating illness takes you. And I thought, God, that is so beautiful. And wouldn't I, I guess we going, I, I've already said it, but it, it just feels so. So bizarre that, that we don't allow this, that in. And I know you're probably sick of people referencing pets, but the fact that we do it for pets, you know, it, it doesn't really make any sense. But I guess you know that already. You did mention to me earlier, there's another, there's a, you have a sister organization, don't you? Or you work with another organization that can help. Is it help put, put plans in place and make their wishes known?

Ellie: 31:32

Yes, so, so Dignity in Dying is the campaign to legalize assisted dying in the uk. So it's really about extending the options people have at the end of life. And we also have a sister charity called, Compassion and dying, and they're really about helping people under the current law to to plan for the end of life, to have honest conversations about they, what they would want, what their loved ones would want, and. Put plans in place to make sure that you get the care and treatment that's right for you, because really you are the best person to make those decisions. You know, we live our lives making all kinds of decisions about, you know, our bodies, our health, our lives, and, and we should have that control at the end as well. And we know that when people have had those conversations, when they've put plan in place, when they've recorded their wishes, they're much more likely to get the care and treatment they want, and their loved ones say. Their relative had what they would say. It was a good death. So what Compassion and dying particularly. specializes in, they have an incredible information line run by Anna Sarah, who's just brilliant. So I'd, I'd encourage anyone who wants to put plans in place for themselves or maybe is supporting a loved one who's dying to call their information line and, and that's 0800 999 2434. And they can help people particularly if they've got a wish to prioritize quality of life over quantity. So a lot of people actually feel if they have got to a stage where they are seriously ill they would want to refuse treatment that's gonna keep them alive in a state where they're suffering. So we can help you make something called a living will, where you can set out, if in future I lose the ability to make or communicate my own decisions. This is a document that speaks for me that says, Okay, in this situation, I would want to refuse, say, for example, C P R or antibiotics and, and you can be really specific about the scenarios that you want to consider and we can help you through that whole process to think through exactly what's right for you, because as I say, you are the right person to make those decisions. And I think there's a, there's a misconception that if you lose capacity through an illness like dementia or if you have, you know, a brain injury or even just, it's quite common at the end of life through many illnesses to lose mental capacity. I think people assume that your loved one can step in and make those decisions, but unless you've got something legal in place, it's a doctor who will decide. So you can. Yeah, it's a people thing. You know, this concept of next of kin, actually, that doesn't mean anything in these situations. You need to either have written down your own wishes or you need to appoint someone, lasting power of attorney, and that gives someone the right to make those decisions for you. But without that, yeah, it's up to doctors, a doctor who might never have met you. Deciding whether you should have life prolonging treatment or not. So it's really important that we all think about what's important to us. Talk to our loved ones and put it in writing. Talking's really important that putting something in writing is absolutely essential. And, and compassion and dying can, can help people with that.

Rosie: 34:43

that's that's really helpful. Thank you. And my final sort of question really was do you think we're going to see a change in and I'm saying our lifetime, assuming that we're going to live another 40 years, we can, we can hope, Hey

Ellie: 34:55

Oh, well, I think we'll see one much sooner than that. You know, I think the mood music, as I say in Parliament, is definitely shifting towards public opinion. I think Parliaments realizing that doing nothing is not an option. And if you just look at the direction of travel around the world, you know, as I say, there's 11 states in the US that have a law for terminally ill people. All states in Australia have now legalized New Zealand's legalized. There are other laws in Canada, in countries across Europe. You know, this is only moving in one direction. If this was dangerous, countries would re be repealing their laws left, right and center. That's not happening. The opposite is happening. You know, more and more countries are having these conversations and considering it, and it's really a matter of when, not if for the uk, but what we really need, you know, it's a numbers game in Westminster. We need a majority of mps to vote for this. So if your listeners care about. Bringing a safe, compassionate, assisted dying law to the UK and and ending some of this suffering that doesn't really, doesn't need to be happening, then I'd really urge them to get involved. Tell us your stories. I'm sure so many of your listeners have really powerful stories. We can help you share those stories in the media. With parliamentarians, we can get this law changed and shine a light on what's really happening at the moment because it just cannot be allowed to.

Rosie: 36:13

We can definitely share any links or emails or anything like that as well if people do want to get in touch with you. Wow. Thank you, Ellie. My final, final question, I promise this is my final question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. But would you go further? Presumably you would take this option if, if the need arose.

Ellie: 36:31

Well, I think what it really comes down to is choice and just having that choice, you know, none of us really know what we would do and what we would want if we were, if we, unless we find ourselves in that situation, that part of my role is, is speaking to people almost every. with really powerful stories, whether it's someone with a terminal illness who wants the option, and in fact, tomorrow, very sadly, I'm going to the funeral of one of our campaigners who I've been working with for the past 18 months David, who had terminal cancer and you know, the suffering that he has endured. He actually lost his own daughter, who is only 39 a couple of years ago, and she suffered so much. He had to have half her face

Rosie: 37:16

Oh God.

Ellie: 37:16

From a tumor, you know those stories, I know I'm probably hearing the, the very worst deaths that are possible, but hearing those stories and knowing the impact of people being denied this option. We, we have to keep fighting for this, and I would want the choice. I don't know what I would do if in, if I was in that situation, but I know that I would want the option and I can completely see that it's, it helps people live. It's about living just as much as dying, and that benefits everyone regardless of what we might choose at the

Rosie: 37:48

And I think that's very clear. It is about choice and it feels to me like the sort of the, the side that quite pro the conversation and having a debate. They are pro-choice cuz you can, obviously, you can choose not to. Whereas the, the kind of the other side who are very anti it, they don't sort of want to hear the dialogue at all. They're very, it's very much no and, and almost forcing everybody to abide by their choice. So, yeah, it's, I think ultimately it, we need to have choice over how our lives end, don't we?

Ellie: 38:13

Exactly. And it's interesting that, you know, you bring up being pro-choice because when you look at the opposition in this country mean there's an all party parliament parliamentary group across party group of of MPS and Lords who campaign against assisted dying. And you look at the membership, they're all. Pro-life, evangelical fundamentalist Christians essentially, and everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, but those beliefs shouldn't infringe on other people's rights. You know, you get to decide not to have an assisted death, but I don't get to decide to have one, and that's not right. It's about respecting everyone's choices and really an assisted dying law respects everyone's choice. It respects the people who don't want it, and importantly, it respects the people who do.

Rosie: 38:58

and let's face it, you know, the people are taking their own lives. It's not stopping people dying, it's just stopping them dying in a dignified manner, isn't it?

Ellie: 39:06

Exactly, exactly. It's, it's about recognizing that, you know, like with abortion, banning, it doesn't make it go away. It just drives it underground and overseas. It makes it unsafe. What we need to do is have a, a safe, transparent, and up front law with safeguards so that people get choice as well as protection and compassion, because none of that is present in the current.

Rosie: 39:29

No, and it, it, we talk a lot about in, in grief, you know, feeling like the troll under the bridge and the freak and, and you add to this, this extra layer of guilt and fear and, you know, perhaps not even be able to talk openly about your, the loss of somebody you love. And it's just another bag to carry. We talk about carrying these bags when you're grieving and it's just another bloody bag to carry. And if we could let people put that one down, it would make things so much. Anyway. Thank you Ellie, I, I really, really appreciate you coming on today and I feel that, I feel like I've been educated. I feel I've had the opportunity to ask so many questions that were on my mind. So I hope we've answered any from listeners and if we do get any come in, are you happy for me to maybe drop you an email or something in the future?

Ellie: 40:10

Of course. Yeah, I'd be delighted to and and please do look us up listeners, if you want to get involved. Just look up dignity and dying and yeah, we wanna hear your stories and we want to help tell them to change this law, so please get in touch.

Rosie: 40:22

Thank you very much.

Ellie: 40:23

Great. Thank you so much for having me.

Lulu: 40:25

Wow. I'm speechless after that. So many of the questions that you asked I hadn't even thought of. It's fascinating. And I didn't realize the public opinion was so far in, in support of, of assisted dying. That's actually really encouraging. But my first thought actually is what happened to Mavis.

Rosie: 40:41

Oh, I know, I know. And I'm going to find out what happened to me this, cause I didn't actually, I meant to ask and I didn't. But yeah, I agree. The idea that they're a campaign group that haven't really got to try and persuade the public because we are already behind them. It's the kind of old cottages in parliament that's still need persuading. And I, I genuinely do wonder as. As they get older or their health deteriorates, whether their opinion may start to change as well, because you know when they're facing that, you know, staring down that barrel, then you know, opinion may change.

Lulu: 41:09

Yeah, surely it will. I mean, I know a couple of the trustees for Dignity and Dying are conservative Lords, you know, in the house of Yeah. It's interesting. They, they've already got people in Parliament who have that influence.

Rosie: 41:21

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we're gonna leave you to think that one over. That was yeah. A really, really fascinating chat with Ellie and I. I wish, I wish I'd had longer actually, because I'm sure I could have asked him many more questions. But thank you everybody for listening. We have a new episode Ready Drop on Monday. It's another, I always say these are amazing cuz they all are, every story that we have is, is amazing. This is a wonderful man called Anthony Del Broccolo and he is based in California. He's actually a writer on the Big Bang Theory, so he has a incredible story to tell and I hope you'll join us and listern.

Lulu: 41:57

Thanks so much everyone, and thank you to our guests this week.

Rosie: 42:00

Bye.