Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:02

hello and a very warm welcome back to your Friendly Widowed podcast. I am joined today all the way from, and I believe it's Colorado, but I always have to check before I announce these things. Yeah, all the way from Colorado at six o'clock in the morning, I've got Rebecca Vogel Pitts, have I said that right? Yes. Yes. Welcome. Now, Rebecca is, um, a member, a dual member of the club because you're a member of, um, obviously you're a widow. Otherwise, it'd be pretty odd that you were here. And, uh, we also are members of what was formerly known the Hot Young Widows Club, which I've talked about quite a bit on this podcast, excuse me, because you guys were my lifeline. You were awake when I, um, everybody else was asleep. And, We were able to be so brutally honest about our experience in a way that I wasn't with the people around me. And,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 0:49

definitely.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:51

and we all have a, I mean the fact that we were called the Hot Young Widows Club, we've got a bit of a dark sense of humour. So, it's really nice to sit opposite you, even if it is down a computer screen thousands of miles

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:01

yes, absolutely.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04

So, Rebecca, um, your husband Kevin, now he died in a, in an accident and um, Obviously my husband died in an accident, so I'm expecting this might be quite challenging in some places for both of us, but I've managed to interview Laurie. So, you know, if I can do

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:19

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well, hers is very similar to yours. So, very much so.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:25

so what I do know, and I, as I said to you before we hit record, uh, I try not to do too much sort of research because I like to hear it from the horse's mouth as it were. I don't mean

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:36

Mm hmm.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:39

he was, he died in 2016 and, and it was a skiing accident. So I'm going to let you tell your story and tell us what happened. Um, and as you know, as much depth as you want to, and I'll just be over here frantically making notes.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:54

Okay.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:55

When you're ready.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:57

Well, um, every, we had a, um, time share up in Breckenridge, Colorado, and we used to go up there all the time. And usually on holiday breaks, we would go up for a bit. He was an avid skier as is my son. And, um, we wanted to go up for the, for the, you know, with the family for a few days, because we always have, um, We had a huge Christmas Eve celebration every year with all of our friends and family, so I had finished school, um, for the break, and my son was also on break. He was a junior in high school at the time. My daughter had flown home from Chicago where she was in college, and we went up, um, to Breckenridge just for four days. And, um, Kevin had decided that he really wanted to ski. He had been really sick. He traveled internationally for his job. And he'd gotten pretty ill in October into November of that year. And we didn't really know what was going on. He had quit drinking. He was trying to do everything he can to get better. He'd gone to the doctor once, but you know how men are. Um, with how they're feeling. They never really admit how badly they're feeling and it was just constantly. I just wasn't feeling well. It was just odd for him. He was a runner, skier, really, you know, into fitness. So it's very strange, but he decided, hey, let's go. So I made a reservation for us and we went up for, I think we got up there on a Sunday morning. We're supposed to stay until Tuesday afternoon. Not that long. It's about a two hour drive from our house and Um, we had dinner the night before and hung out and it was a few days before Christmas. It was, uh. December 19th of 2016 and so we were watching Christmas movies and just hanging out as a family as we normally did and goofing around and We went to bed and it was really strange I woke up at about 5 in the morning and I walked out Into the living room in the condo where we were staying and he was just sitting by the fire with a cup of coffee Just staring into the fire and smiling And I said, what are you up to? And he's like, Oh, I'm just trying to relax before I head out. And he's like, I'm feeling great today and I can't wait. And like the day before he had bought these goofy snow pants that he was going to wear because it was his first time up. And which is strange. He was normally going up November when the ski season opened.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:32

And just for the British audience, that means trousers, doesn't it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 4:35

Yes, it does. Yeah. And, and so he, or ski pants or snow pants, however you want to say it. Anyway, so

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:45

that in his underpants on skis, but

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 4:48

I know. Yeah, no, no. But anyway, so he around 7 o'clock that morning, we just hung out together for a couple of hours. The kids were sleeping and, um, it was my son, you know, my kids were teenagers. So they were night owls. But my daughter got up with us around 7. 30 and he was going to try to get out by 8 to get up to the ski hill. And we were staying in town at the time. And so where our condo usually is, um, in our timeshare, he was going to go up there because he was able to park. And then you could ski in and ski out from the resort where we, um, have our timeshare. So he went up there and he left around 8 o'clock. And before he left, he gave me big, big hug. And gave Kira a hug. My son wasn't up. He was sleeping. And we told him that we'd meet up with him later because we were going to go up to our resort and sit outside in the hot tubs, jacuzzis, and just wait for him. And we were going to have lunch. And so we didn't even think anything of it. And we went about our day. But I was just checking on him, and we have the Find Friends app, where you can check, you know, where people are location wise, because, um, I just do that, we did it with our kids, and with each other. And I just noticed he had been left at 8 o'clock, and it was 10. 30 in the morning, and he hadn't left, um, the resort, and I thought that was really weird. And I tried to contact him, but I think by the time I tried, he had put his phone in his pocket, and he had headed out. And so I thought, oh, he's probably fine, and then I looked again at around 1130 and it looked like he was heading up on a lift. 1145. So I thought, okay, it's great. And I told my daughter, Kira, I said, let's go. Let's just head up to the resort. So we did. We drove up and we just hung out up there and we sat in the jacuzzi outside. It had been snowing. We're just hanging out. My son decided to go into town. He was studying for finals. So he was in town at a coffee shop just studying for finals at the time. And I was looking at around That was around two o'clock and I looked and I said, huh? I wonder where your dad is and I kept trying to contact him because even on the hill he I could totally Get in touch with him He would stop at any time because he used to go all the time and he would be able to at least text me back

Rosie Gill-Moss: 7:22

And actually you said before we came on mic that he was a very, very accomplished skier and he had been skiing for 40 years. And I think that's a really important point, isn't it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 7:31

yep. We both moved to Colorado when we were kids in the 70s and He started skiing. He lived he was born in California. I was born in New York State and um, He had been skiing since he was about eight, and he was 48 at the time. So about 40 years. Um, so I was just trying not to worry about him. I always worried about him skiing. I don't like to ski. I'm not a fan. Never liked it. I think it's dangerous. My son loves it. He's really good at it. My daughter and I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:03

Well, I've written this down at the beginning when you said your son still skis. Because I've just written down, Avid skier, brackets, as his son, an exclamation mark. Because, and I'm going to bring you back to this after you've told your story, but the idea of letting your son go skiing must be very frightening. And

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 8:20

too. He started when he was four. Um, my son, my husband insisted and the kids at least trying to see what if either one of them would love it like he did because he loved it. It was his favorite thing in the world. And, um, So I just thought it was really weird. So I told my daughter, I said, let's go and get, let's just go and get ready. And I'll keep trying to call your dad because he's not answering. And I looked and I noticed on find friends, he was in one spot and he was in one spot for probably, cause it was just two in the afternoon. The entire time I was looking between two and two 30, he just didn't move, which was weird. And then finally I looked at the phone. It was around two 45 and. His dot had moved all the way down to the bottom of the other of the hill all the way down So he was way way up because he would always he was a black skier. He was expert skier So it had gone all the way down to the bottom of the hill and I'm like, this is weird Like all of a sudden he's down at the bottom of the hill in like 10 minutes strange

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:27

your brain's probably telling you that he's dropped his phone, you're like, coming up with all sorts of ideas,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 9:32

Or he was just on his way back.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:33

working, you know.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 9:35

Yeah, because he was literally down the hill from us. He was, if we could walk out of the resort and walk down the hill by half a mile, he would have been right where we saw him. so I got dressed, we were getting dressed, it was just my daughter and I, and I called the phone again. And someone answered. And it wasn't my husband. And I said, And now I just said, Hey, hello. And he said, are you Kevin Pitt's wife? And I said, yeah. And he's like, well, I'm sorry to tell you this. And he did this on the phone. It's like, you might want to sit down. And he told me that my husband was dead on the phone.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:25

Oh, Rebecca. God.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 10:27

told me he was dead on the phone. Didn't tell me to come down the hill. Didn't. Say anything like didn't say hey, you know what we have your husband here. Can you please come down? Nope, just told me flat out. My husband was dead

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:44

And your brain must have been in overdrive. Is it a prank? Is this somebody

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 10:49

I lost my shit I lost my mind. I went bonkers. I was like what? I was lost it and my daughter's like what? She's 19 at the time So she's an adult and I couldn't I just was like screaming like I was just I've never screamed like that in my life

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:08

I know. I know the noise.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 11:10

Yeah, and so I I didn't know what to do. I was just a wreck. I was screaming and yelling. My poor daughter's yelling. We're like, what do we do? We were just in shock. And we wanted to try to get in touch with my son, and he, his phone wasn't answering. I think he, it probably wasn't, I don't know what was going on. We couldn't get in touch

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:32

Boys and their phones.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 11:33

Oh, I know. I was surprised because usually he's on it, but he probably was on it with someone

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:38

just don't answer to us.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 11:41

And so I just, Lost my mind and it was the we were in the changing room. So people heard us and went to get someone at the front office and someone came in and I told them what had happened and they were like, oh So they went and got some people from the resort some of the couple of women that were kind of customer relations that were there and they came in and it was just It's rough and they said, Hey, where's your son? And I told them, I said, he's at Starbucks, he's in town, you know, and they said, okay, so one of these women got in their car and drove down to get my son. And this other woman drove us down the hill, um, to the hospital, which was right at the bottom of the ski hill, right near where we were staying. And, um, my, we waited for my son cause I didn't want to go in there and have him walk in by himself. And, and the rest of it, it's, it's kind of a blur in and out because I was in such shock, you know, and they brought us in to this back room and had Kevin's wallet and pulled out his identification and said, is this your husband? This is everything that was in his pocket. He looked like such a nice guy, you know, and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:10

using past tense and you've only just heard.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 13:13

oh my

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:14

This seems to have happened so fast.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 13:16

I am still to this day upset with the resort. And I'll tell you some crazy shit that happened later. You're going to be like, whoa. But anyway, I couldn't believe how they handled it. And it's not like they haven't done this before.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:30

gonna say, it won't be their first rodeo, will

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 13:33

in Brighton Ridge, six to eight people die up there. And in Colorado, we lose a lot of people, sometimes up to 20 people a year skiing, if not more.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:42

Wow.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 13:43

Oh, it's a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:43

I feel like I've just stricken ski holiday off my wish list.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 13:47

No, I don't blame you. It's beautiful up there in the winter, but I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:50

be in the hot tub with you.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 13:51

Thank you. But anyway, so the doctor came in and, and I said, do we know what happened? And he's like, well, the ski patrol got him and brought him down here and they found him in some trees. And I said, they found him in some trees. And I said, okay, great. But what do you think happened? And I said, where? In the middle of a run, which was like, no way. That's not Kevin. He wouldn't ski into trees in the middle of a run. I don't care what the condition the run was in. He wouldn't have done that. And they said that he had hit the tree so hard that it was like he had been in a severe car accident. So they couldn't tell what happened. They couldn't tell if it was a heart attack because it was like his heart was damaged so much. Because of the impact that they couldn't tell if it had been a heart attack, his head, he had brain injuries. He'd hit his head, he had a helmet on, but still had traumatic brain injuries. They couldn't tell if it was something that had happened before he had hit the tree. And so we're sitting there and we're just numb. And the, they had the minister come in, who they have come in, um, Just, I think he's kind of in town. They call him to come in and either administer last rites or have him come in to support families, but he said, he said, do you want to see him? And this isn't like an hour. Within an hour this all happened. So I'm waiting for my husband. I find out he's dead on the phone. We go in and they're wanting us to see him.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:40

And they've already told you that, excuse me, that it was a catastrophic accident. Equivalent to a car accident. So, no nice way of saying it, but whatever you see is not going to be pretty, is it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 15:53

Well, so we think.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:55

Oh.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 15:56

This is just so weird. So my son, oh my god, my son, my son was like, I'll go. I want to see, I want to see him first because I don't want you guys to see him if he's not in a good, good shape. This is a 17 year old kid. And um, so he went in and he was there. He was in there for a few, for a few minutes, for a bit. And he had tears in his eyes. He came out. He said, you guys can go. It's okay. He just looks like he's sleeping.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:28

Wow.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 16:30

And so, we went in. I went in by myself.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:39

It's okay, take all the time you need, darling. I'm so sorry.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 16:42

He was wearing this sweater. He loved these Rossignol sweaters from the 70s, and I bought him one. He was wearing it. They had cut all of his clothes off, but they had covered him up. And he looked like he was sleeping. And, my son, Jackson, came in, he had his arm around me, and my daughter went in, and we got to see him, and spend a little time with him, and, um, they cut some hair off for me. Because he had beautiful hair. He was Irish, so he had this giant head of hair and a big head. We always used to laugh about his big head. And so we, we got some of his hair and then we started calling people, more people, because we didn't know what to do and where to go, because I didn't want to drive. We were two hours from home. I called my friend who had been taking care of our house first. And then we just called family. Kira started calling family when we were in the changing room, just to tell them something bad has happened, called his mother, um, called his sister, who's been one of my best friends since second grade, and um, just called people, and my sister in law said, I'm coming. So Kevin's sister just got in her car and just drove to us. My mother in law, obviously, was in no shape. And my parents, I think, were in shock, so we didn't really talk to them for very long. But Erin came up, my sister in law, she came up, and I don't even know how she made it. Because she and Kevin were siblings and very close. And they had been their whole lives. They were only like 19 months apart in age. And she made it all the way up for us and picked us up and we got all of his things and they said that they were going to figure out what to do with his body and what did we want to do? And they, on our way home, they called and asked, I heard Leah talking about this yesterday, about harvesting his organs already and that there wasn't really anything to save, save for maybe some skin and some, the corneas of his eyes. And So, I'm in the car in shock trying to get home and they're calling about all this stuff. So this is in the course of probably 3 and a half hours. That all of this has happened, I mean, this is just. I think very typical of resorts to be this way, especially this 1, um. When somebody

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:47

It's almost like it's, um, like a, an everyday occurrence, or like it's a thing that happens, and it's, like they're going through the process, um, and the kind of magnitude of what's happened to you and your family is sort of been lost in this. It's, it's just mad. This sounds really flippant, but like another ski. And, of course, it's not just a ski accident. This is your husband. This is the father of your children. Um, and, and, we're hearing you talk about Erin, his sister, because, actually, it's one thing we don't tend to talk about is sibling loss and the enormity of losing the person that you've grown up with. Uh, and I just think what a, what a, A legacy she, she created by going to you, by doing the right thing and coming to you when her brother couldn't. And so she sort of put her own grief on hold and came to you and I think that speaks volumes about her.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 20:44

and I think. I mean, she's amazing anyway, she's 1 of my best friends to me to this day. We've got grown even closer since then, but. You know, just a caveat to the whole ski resort thing and just so people know when you Sign for a ski pass. He had a ski pass when you sign Any paperwork at a ski resort? You're basically signing off your life. You can't go back and sue unless it's Absolutely seen that they were at fault Like no question pretty much. You can't do anything So I kind of knew that They were covering up their asses as quickly as they could. They didn't want to do an autopsy. That's a big thing. They said we saw on the scan what had happened, and we don't think an autopsy is necessary. So they didn't recommend an autopsy, and there's an issue with the coroner up there at the time by not, not doing autopsies on ski accidents. It happens a lot in resorts, and So You know, with all of that, I think that's why it was, they, they were so quick to get things through and for us to get out of there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:59

But without any real humanity, because this

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 22:01

really the only people that were really humane, like the ski, they had the, um. The woman who. Really worked with us from the resort. She drove his car home the next day and the people in the ski patrol. They were acting weird. And my son's like, Why was he up there so long? And they were like, No, we, we saw him. We came upon him. It couldn't have been much long after he, it happened. This woman was just making excuses now. I don't want to just ski patrols. I think people who run the ski patrol are absolutely amazing. Most of the time they volunteer their work. They volunteer doing what they do, so I don't want to just ski patrol, but on that particular day, this particular person. I knew something was wrong

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:59

It's that spidey sense, isn't it? You, I, I use it on, I use that on the kids all the time. I'm like, I can tell you're lying to me.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 23:05

like. Something is wrong, Mom. This is not right.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:11

There's a lot of gaps, isn't there? There's a lot of gaps.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 23:13

a lot of gaps. So, we're heading home, and of course, my kids are traumatized. And my daughter's calling her friends. They're calling everybody, because we just, when we got home, we wanted people to know. And of course, we got home when we had just a bunch of people at the house, um, that came over. My neighbor, one of my neighbors across the street, she's one of my close friends to this day too. We raised our kids together and she came over with her husband at the time and just our neighbors came. And, um, I think it was my, one of my daughter's best friends said the media already has it because he was the first ski death of the season in Colorado. First.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:59

I

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 23:59

So,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:01

there's an accolade.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 24:03

this newspaper. In Summit County, where it happened had put it all over Facebook.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:10

Oh no.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 24:11

The 1st, and they had his name. Already, we hadn't even told everybody. And my daughter's friend, she's amazing. This is a 19 year old girl. She called them and said, what the. What are you doing? What are you doing? You're plastering this guy's name all over social media, and the family's barely been notified, if not everybody. Not everybody's been notified, and she went to town on them.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:41

I like the sound of Kira.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 24:43

but I ended up calling them, and basically, I was like, I don't know what the hell you're doing, but you need to take it down now. And they got the editor on the phone, and I said, I don't know what the hell you're doing, but That's my husband there. He has a family, and there are people out there who love him, and I cannot believe that you're plastering this all over social media, and of course, news networks had gotten a hold of it already, too. So he was on the news. Nationally, he was in the papers because he was the first ski death of night of 2016 2017. And so we're dealing with this whole social media. Crap and trying to deal with what's happened all at once. My kids, my in laws, you know, Kevin's family, my family, our friends. Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:41

got an opinion on how you live your life, um, sort of, you know, um, throughout being, the journey, but you have been thrust into the spotlight immediately, there's no, you haven't had a chance to, like you say, you haven't even had a chance to inform people, and you, and I don't know about you because Ben's, um, the media got hold of Ben's story as well.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 26:01

well, I, I assumed that I'm sure that was true.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:04

It was in, um, in the New York Post or the Washington Post at one point, I mean, it was mental, but it, what I struggled with was the people kind of popping up into my Facebook messages, uh, strangers, total strangers, and there were people saying, you mustn't give up hope, and, and I don't know whether they were well meaning or if they just, you get that kind of grief, uh, the grief of Jason, you know, they want a little, for some reason, people want a piece of it, don't they? And you, you just feel like everybody is coming at you and wants a piece of you, and you actually haven't really. You don't know, your brain hasn't caught up yet. And I'm just thinking, like, of you just being bombarded. And even the idea of everybody being at your house, it's lovely, but it can feel a bit like a celebration or a circus. And

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 26:46

it was, uh, it was.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:49

one of my kids said to me, you know, why is everyone getting us presents? Dad's died. It's not a party.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 26:53

Oh, yeah, I know. Everybody just wants you to feel better and the interesting thing in my community. So I'm a school teacher and I live in a town. That's not that big. Um, we live just outside of Boulder, Colorado in a town. It's called Longmont and it's only at the time. I think it's, you know, it's quite a few thousand people, but I, it feels like a small town. And so everybody knew me. I've been teaching school for years. And second grade now, but I have a master's degree in early childhood.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:27

Oh, I missed you.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 27:28

Second grade is seven, eight years old. So, um, but I have a master's degree in early childhood education. So I've been teaching early childhood, preschool age, kindergarten, um, second grade primarily. But, um. So second graders, which I teach now, there's seven and eight. And so over the years, you know, you teach that many people, that many kids and families. Everybody wants to surround you. The community really came together and my husband was very well loved. People knew him, knew us. And um, so everybody just wants to help, you know, and friends of mine who have lost husbands recently. I have quite a few lost. I've spouses sadly in the last few years that I said, I don't know anybody really wants to do as help. And they just don't know what to do and they don't know what to say. So from that point on, it was just overwhelming for a while. And it's just, I don't know, it's just was really, really hard to grasp all of it. I'm just trying to come to terms with that. My husband's gone because he was such a big presence. You were married almost 21 years.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:40

And it's that

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 28:40

together, we knew each other forever.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:42

how did their light just switch off? That's what I, and I struggle with this to this day, is how did they go from being alive to dead? And it leaves you with this real uncertainty about the world. Because if that can happen, what about my kids? What about me? What about my family? And I don't think I've ever felt completely safe ever since. Because it

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 29:01

I, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:02

don't. You don't think it can happen.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 29:05

You know, you worry about it. I mean, that's what I was worried about. I was like, do I even want to be involved with anybody again? Because all I'm just going to worry about is if they're going to die on me. You know? And I thought about my kids that way, too. I'm like, gosh. I mean, they're going to be worried about me the rest of their lives. Mm hmm. Because they, they have the only parent left for them.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:25

And

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 29:25

that's the thing. People don't understand. When you lose a spouse, you're an only parent. You're not a single parent. You're an only parent. You're on your own. And your village tries to help you. But ultimately, you are that parent for that child.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:42

The buck stops with you, and I found that quite difficult because Ben was, um, he was my sort of, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, he took the force of the blow, you know? He was, he was, um, my protector, and he was the sort of the, the man of the house, for want of a less chauvinistic term, and he, I just thought, who, it stops with me now. All the responsibility of raising these kids. All these responsibilities of the practical stuff like the bills and the house. It's all, and you will find people who are divorced saying, Oh yes, I understand. And you're thinking, do

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 30:18

Not a hundred percent. It's a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:19

your kids see their dad? And also you're managing grief. These children are not, they are devastated. And you've got to try and support them through something that you have no clue how to do.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 30:32

Oh Absolutely, cuz I mean I hadn't really suffered big losses in my life up to that point. I my Stepmother had passed. My dad's wife had passed just that summer before and they were together 24 years and we were very close to her and that was really really difficult. That was Probably the hardest thing I've been through and then just a few months later, I lost him. It's almost like it was getting me ready. Her passing was getting me ready for this happening. And you know, I had teenagers. I mean, toughest time in your life to lose a parent and my daughter was very close to her dad. I mean, he was like, you know how with parents, you, I adore both my children and they're both very different people, but your children tend to bond with one or the other parent in just different ways. Like my daughter and I are close, but we have a different relationship. She was like, her dad was just, he was her protector, her keeper, her,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:34

constant. That's what I'm thinking. That constant in your life. You know, somebody that loves you so unconditionally.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 31:39

When they had spent tons of time together because he worked from home He worked for a high tech company and worked from home and then he traveled but she had come home from college. They had a long College break between November and January because it's Chicago. It's freezing. So they came home and she spent Every day with her dad, like hanging out when he wasn't working, they were doing things together, watching stupid television shows. So that was really hard. And, and, you know, my son, you know, boys and their moms, but he was close with his dad. They had, they bonded over soccer. Um, oh, he was my husband and my son diehard Chelsea fans. My, my husband, it's funny, his mother was born in Ireland and immigrated. And so my husband was very Irish, his father's mother also. And so he was very, grew up playing soccer. His grandfather loved it. He just grew up loving the game. Was on 1 of the 1st teams that we started in, um, our school district. We were in high school. He played soccer. My sister in law played soccer. So it was a big part of our household. Like, you could hear them up early in the morning, screaming, watching games because they were

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:53

time difference.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 32:54

It's the time difference. So, you know, my kids. It was very, very hard for them. I had my son, my husband coached his soccer teams for over the years. He was always every single game. My son was really good and he was playing high school at the time. He made the varsity team, which is like the top team. And he was playing really, I mean, high level soccer. And my husband was really, really into it. And that was their bonding experience. They, I mean, soccer and skiing sports. And so, you know, it's just, it was hard on them. And I think at the time. I knew it was, but I was in such a deep hole, I didn't even know what to do myself,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:38

Yeah.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 33:39

how to even parent,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:41

And it is different because mine were very little, and I'm, forgive me, I do this where I kind of, um, talk about my own experiences, but it kind of, um, I'm not trying to make it all about me, but when they were very little, particularly my youngest, who was a baby, You kind of just have to do it. You have to get up and you have to brush your teeth and, uh, you know, do the bottles and the breakfast, whereas if you've got some young adults in the house, which you did, then they, they, they're quite independent. You don't need to, you know, and I assume they didn't like get in your bed and sleep with you and. So it's very different because you can't do the sort of typical mum, I'm just gonna sweep you up and, and wrap my arms around you, because they, they, they're little adults. They've got all sorts of different emotions going on. And actually, I sort of look at my children now and think how different the loss would be now. Um, I'm not saying it'd be worse, I'm not saying it'd be easier, but it would be very different. Hmm.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 34:36

hmm. It is different. It's a little bit different just because they had, you know, on the opposite side, they had a lot of wonderful memories of their dad. I mean, they, they were able to grow up with their father and had all these memories. So for them, I think the loss was hard because they had the memories when you have tiny kiddos and I know yours, I was supposed to hurt, but your little baby, like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:57

I know. And she's just starting to sort of say, you know, My daddy never got to know me and things. So we, we, it's a lot of delayed grief with her. But, um,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 35:07

it's different. And my daughter went back to college by the way, like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:11

Well, my kids were back in school dressed as Harry Potter. You know, they, they need, and actually I now know from talking to so many people that it's very common, they need that structure, they need to go back to normality. And hearing you talk about Kevin and how much he was a part of their lives, this is something I had with Ben. Because he worked for himself, so he had a workshop out in France, so he would be at home roughly three weeks a month and out there for one week. But that meant he was there for school runs and, um, you know, Sunday morning pancakes and, you know, all the little things that a lot of fathers, through work, aren't able to be at. But it's a bit of a mixed blessing because they are such a big integral part of their lives that the loss is felt so hugely and yet you're so grateful that they had that time. It's a real catch 22.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 35:56

it's, it's so, it's really hard, but you know, it's kind of funny sometimes something will come up and Kira will say, my God, remember when dad did this and we would just start laughing and now we have like these memories and it's weird. It's been over seven years now. And so sometimes things will pop into my memory. I'm like, Oh my God, I forgot about that. I forgot about that. Like things are coming back because I was in that widow fog for so long. I just couldn't remember anything. And of course going through paramenopause at the time did not help matters. It was hormonal. It was just the hormones from hell and on top of anxiety, on top of this loss. And I was just a hot mess myself. And I can tell you my best, best friends, man, those women. I mean, and their spouses, and they were very, I mean, it was my teammates from work who are good friends of mine. Um, I have a couple of very close girlfriends that were just very protective of me. One in particular, she's to this day, she's just my heart, one of my favorite human beings.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:09

That's the word I was looking for a minute ago. There we go.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 37:12

My friend Chris is a firewall. She was not taking it. She was protecting me. Some things happened here and there and she was like, no, not on my watch. Very protective. And her name is Chris

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:26

Thank you,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 37:27

Christina. She's amazing. And to this day, I'm very close with my family and kids are, she's like a mom to them. You know, my kids have these moms in their lives outside of me, which I think are very important. And, um, families, my daughter's best friend from college, um, her parents were very supportive of her. And she was, in fact, just out there and visiting them, um, this past weekend. She lives in Berlin, Germany, but she's home for a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:59

She?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 38:00

Yeah. So she's home visiting for a bit and it was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:05

Completely off topic, but what brought her to, to, uh, to Europe? Why is she in Germany?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 38:10

she's always wanted to live there. She has a BFA in costume design from the theater school at DePaul University. She's an artist and she lived there, moved to Portland, Oregon, and when she was about a year out, I sent her to Spain on a grief trip. I said, just go. Here's the money for a ticket. She had two girlfriends studying abroad there, so she went and she had a really great time. She was only 20. And she met someone there, but he was quite a bit older and nothing came of it. They stayed friends, but over the years stayed in touch and he was in the States visiting. He's from Texas, but he's lived in Europe for years and they met up again and fell in love. And she moved over there two years ago. She finished college in 2019 and lived in Portland and then moved there. So she's an artist and. Trying to figure it out right now, like, where to go from there. She's. I've gotten her Irish citizenship, so she's waiting on her passport and. I don't know if she'll ever come back here to the States. She's loves she loves living over there. So.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:22

can I confess, I've never been to Berlin. Um, and it is on my list, because I realised, when you've got kids, those little mini breaks, because we're so, and Americans always say, you're so lucky, you've got all of Europe on your doorstep, you know, a two, three hour flight. Or, you know, you can even drive. And, um, this is my plan, now the kids are a little bit older, is just to kind of get, like Airbnb, and just go for a couple of nights, city breaks, and show them, Just show them how easy and how lucky we are to have it on our doorstep. So, you'll have to let me know if you're visiting Germany and we can perhaps tie up.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 39:54

Oh, my gosh, I mean, and I've been to London so many times. I.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:57

I'm an hour from London. You'll have to let

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 39:59

fact, the last time I'm just going to side note when I was there, I hung out with Sam.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:06

Oh, Sam!

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 40:07

Yeah, and we, and she was talking, she's like, I don't think we can, I don't know what Rosie's up to. And I think. We had thought about trying to get in touch with you, and I think something was going on

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:18

It might have been the big COVID issue of 2020

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 40:22

It was before it was right before it was 2019. So I took my daughter to London. We went to a bunch of shows and, um, then we flew over to Berlin because I had a girlfriend living there at the time from here. And so, um, yeah, so we were over there, but I've traveled a lot with the kids overseas because we traveled a lot overseas as a family because my husband worked overseas, he worked in Spain, he worked in Portugal, he worked. All over the place, Southeast Asia. So we had the miles. We started taking the kids places when they were about 10, 12 years old. And my sister in law lived in Switzerland. Kevin's sister lived in Lausanne, Switzerland for six years.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:02

Okay.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 41:02

And she's a neuropsychologist and she was a food scientist and worked for Nestle at the time. So.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:10

lot of brains sloshing around that

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 41:12

Oh, my gosh, she's very brilliant. But anyway, um, so, you know, my kids, they're full on adults now. And at the time, my son was at this really critical age. I was just, I was a wreck. And

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:26

I checked out.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 41:28

yeah, I, I don't know how I did this, but I sold my house and moved within 4 months. I got out of the house

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:35

And is that because there was just too many memories in the house, yeah?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 41:38

and it was just weird. And my kids were like, I hate this place. And we had talked about moving anyway, and so I moved up closer to where I work, um, into old town area, Colorado, old is like a little over a 100 years old. You're, you're in a very old part of the world. So, for me,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:57

is, uh, 400 years old?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 42:00

I know mine's 100, almost 100 years old. Mine's old.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:03

America.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 42:04

old for where I live, but I moved out of the house into a new space for us. And it's was the best thing I could have done for me. And I know they say you're not supposed to make harsh decisions. That's how I agree with you. It's, you need to do you and do what you need to do, um, because whatever works for your heart and your psyche and for me, being closer to my school community and a lot of my new neighbors were families that would keep an eye on me, some of my school dads, You know, they would walk by the house and point at me and say, hey, they'd walk in their dogs, you know, people would drive by and wave and they knew where I lived because I'm really close to my school and, and I think that really, really helped. But I mean, but I have this interesting story to tell you

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:57

Please do.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 42:58

because you know how we didn't know what happened on that ski hill. And we weren't really sure, we didn't, the stories just weren't jiving for us. And so, um, about, I'd say three, four months after Kev died, one of my best friends, like, so my friend Christina, I have her, and then I have this other really close friend, Amy, and her husband, who I've been friends with forever, I adore him. And, so, we're, she was a close friend. So, she had gone to brunch, um, in her hometown. With a bunch of women that she had worked with in child care and in education, and it was, there's a woman at the table and she was just telling the story of how Kevin passed. One of my best friends just died in a ski accident and this woman looked at her and she's like, really when and she said, December and she said, was that up in Breckenridge? And she said, yeah, and she said, my, my brother in law found him

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:03

Oh my god, that's made me go, really? a weird coincidence!

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 44:07

I said, what she said, no, her brother in law found him. So, here's his information if you want to get in touch with him and I couldn't believe it. And I, I, I, I just was mulling it over my head. Like, do I want to know this? Do I want to find out what happened? What did he see? I didn't know if he had just had happened upon. You know, but the ski patrol had been saying, they found him this whole time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:36

Oh, so he wasn't Ski Patrol?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 44:38

It was not ski patrol who found him. So.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:42

you?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 44:43

They lied to me

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:45

Hmm.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 44:47

and so. I think it, because it was. They had just opened that run and they didn't have anybody up there because nobody was going up there. Kev was like, 1 of the only people up there that morning and they hadn't I just don't think they'd had the chance to get up there because it was windy. And not a lot of people were going up, so I think the patrol was more concentrated on the really busy areas below and they didn't have enough people on hand. So I'm not blaming them for not being there honestly, because I don't think. It was their fault they weren't there, but to mislead me and tell me that they were.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:21

And that's quite a big lie as well, isn't it? Because they're saying that they found him. So you could have been asking them all these questions about what, you know, what did you see, what was there and, I mean, what were they planning to do? So they were literally making it up as they went along.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 45:33

They just said he was found in the trees. That's what they said.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:35

And that maybe is why they were so vague, huh?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 45:37

Oh, yeah. I think it was just vague

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:39

Hmm.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 45:40

so I called this guy and he lived in Breckenridge at the time and Said that he had been up skiing and was up there kind of he's like, you know, it was the run was open I was waiting for it to get open. So I decided that I was just gonna go that day and he is married lived at two little girls and Had gone up, and he was skiing. He went all the way up to where my husband was and was skiing down and saw something flash. And he was like, saw something, and thought someone was like right next to him and stopped. And he was just looking around. It felt like something, someone was there. It was weird, and he looked around, took his helmet off. My husband was in the trees. He saw something. he was like, Oh no, and he was in the trees and he found him there and he didn't know what to do and they have this code you can call and he could not get ahold of the ski patrol to save his life. He kept calling and calling and calling and was waiting for them to show up. And in the meantime, someone else came by and they pulled him out and had laid him down. And

Rosie Gill-Moss: 46:55

So he wasn't even in the trees when the snow patrol came.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 47:01

so they showed up and they. We're there and they were helping and trying to resuscitate him because that's what they said they had to do.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:11

And was he dead when they found him? Yeah.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 47:13

Oh, yeah Yeah, he's he was gone. He's dead and They there was a lost cause they tried they said the poor guy we could tell he was gone But it was these two Yeah, so

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:27

to him, the guy, you know, the person that had found him? Because that must have been really Excuse me. I've got the dregs of this horrible cough that's ripping through the UK.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 47:37

Oh

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:37

Um

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 47:38

it's here too. Mm

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:41

Sorry, I'm going to just refer back to my situation again, but I wanted so badly to speak to the skipper of the boat. And he wouldn't take my calls. And I wanted to just speak or look into the eyes of the person who saw him last. And I did see him in the coroner's court and a lot of the anger I felt automatically dissipated. But you build up, I built him up to be this monster. And he was just a, he was just a bloke who, you know, a terrible accident happened on his watch. But. In that moment, you, because you've got so little information, there's the truth, I mean I'm, I've got real issue in lies anyway, I can't, I can't like, I'm just kidding. And I struggle, but to lie and to be told untruths when you're reeling and you, because you must have just wanted as much information as you could get. And then to find out that what you've been told was made up, I just, that's so unnecessary cruel.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 48:32

I think the thing that really worried me was that he was alive for a while. So we didn't, you know, we had no idea if he was alive and up there hurting and wasn't gotten to in time, but I think he helped me realize he was killed instantly and that he didn't feel any pain. He's like, he looked like he was asleep when we grabbed, we pulled him out.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:57

And it is

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 48:58

he's a big guy. My husband was a big dude. He was like 6'1 He was a big guy.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:03

mine too, six two.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 49:04

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:06

and I, much like you, I had this kind of horrible visions of him struggling to breathe, of him, um, of him even knowing that he was going to die, because He loved us, and he loved us so much, and the thought of him knowing that he was going to leave us, it just ups, I mean even now I can feel my heart breaking, you know? And it was only in the, um, and we didn't know, we didn't know what caused it because he's never been found, so there's no, we can't even check his equipment, right? But, to sit opposite the, um, the guy, there was a boat, the captain of the boat and another diver. And then to be able to piece together what may have happened. We still don't know, but we, he had been sick before he went in the water. And you could throttle him again, because that's a real no no with scuba diving. But

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 49:53

You know that's my husband. He was sick that day too.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:56

and you cling on to these little pieces of information, because you always want a reason. Because I'm thinking, did he have a brain hemorrhage? Did he have a heart attack? And if he did, should I get my children checked? Did he have an undiagnosed heart condition? So you, and your brain is just going everywhere and knowledge is. It's all you've got, it's all you've got, it's those little pieces of their final moments. And I take, now I can take some comfort, if that's the right word, in knowing that he, it's very unlikely that he struggled and suffered. It's a poor consolation really, but

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 50:28

I know it is poor consolation, but I mean, I think that's been helpful and he was just a mess, this poor guy. And he put a memorial up on the tree. I've never seen it. I've never been up to it. I know where it is, but he made a metal heart. It was, um, when I talked to him, it was after Easter and I think this guy was pretty religious and he had palms. From Palm Sunday, and he made a cross with them because Kevin was a confirmed Catholic

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:59

so it's Irish, so.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 51:01

Yes, and So they have a there's a memorial up there. He put up there, but I think not for him. I don't think I would have known Those details and it was actually really helpful. So I because I think that was a big closure We still don't know what killed him. I don't think it was skiing and that's why I don't want to I'm not a big skier. I'm not a big fan, but I also don't think skiing itself killed him at all. Um, I think it's a very dangerous sport. Don't get me wrong. And I think people who get involved with it know that though.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:33

But don't you think it's funny, because I, even when the police were at my door, and I knew he'd gone out scuba diving, I thought they were coming to tell me he crashed. It just didn't,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 51:43

Oh, like.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:44

confident, competent, very, very qualified, and I, it, it was his hobby, and I've written down where you said that it was his big love, you know, this, and now, now I'm sort of through the eye of the storm, I can say, okay, well, he died doing something he loved. It was that place he was happiest second to being with me and the kids. So, and actually had he died in front of me and the kids that would have been so traumatic. Um,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 52:09

Yeah, I think the same thing. My son could have been with him.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:12

yeah.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 52:13

When he decided that he didn't want to go that day. He's like, maybe we'll do some runs tomorrow morning, dad. Let's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:19

quickly just draw you back to that? Sorry, it's popped into my head so it has to come out. The, um, two things. Firstly, this memorial is very Somebody offered to go down and put something on the shipwreck where Ben was diving, and I said no because I didn't want anybody else to go down there, even though I logically know that divers are down there all the time. But hearing you say that, I'm now thinking maybe I would like that. Maybe I would like somebody to put like a metal plaque or just a, you know, just his name down there or something. Um God, my brain just dropped out. Yes, and the other thing I wanted to quickly ask you was, uh, your son, you say he's still a skier. Now, how on earth did you feel the first time he put a pair of skis on after this?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 52:56

Oh my God. And it took him a while to get back up, but he loved it too. And he graduated from, from high school about a year later, a year and a half later, and went to college and stayed here in Colorado. And so he skied a lot. He had a pass every year and would go. And I would just fingers, but my son's, he is a good skier and that's the thing. I don't think skiing killed him. And I think my son's a good skier. He's like, I learned how to be cautious. How to behave on a hill. So he's really, really good, but when he last year he, well about a year and a half ago he moved to Los Angeles, so he lives there. He's an aspiring writer.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:37

I see. Put him in touch with Anthony?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 53:40

Yeah, it's he's yeah, he has actually he's met up with Anthony. Anthony's been really great. He's like, many things he just lets, he was like, he reads my, my drivel and he's like, he gives, he's given me some pointers, but he's like, he's, you know, Anthony was really sweet and Jackson eventually moved out there. So, um, but he now he really would like to go back skiing. I think he's mentioned it. He's like, someday. When I can afford it again, I want to go like mammoths close by. There are places in California. He could ski the Utah is not far away. So I think at some point, he'll get back on them again. All of his equipment's here still in the garage. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:21

What about Kevin's equipment? Do you have that?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 54:24

to have his equipment. Um, we threw him all

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:28

I can, it's just taken me back to a memory that I'd almost sort of forgotten happened. And I can remember going into our garage and there was the tanks and, and the equipment that he hadn't had. And I just, you know, that's super strength that you get when you're just, when you, I can just remember getting these tanks and just, I mean, I probably shouldn't throw oxygen tanks around, but I, in the moment.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 54:50

That's what I did. I threw everything out. I told my son, I said, should we, I mean, these were in the garage for a while'cause we didn't know. And I said, we need to. That's bad juju, man.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:59

Mm hmm.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 55:00

those outta here. So we got rid of all that stuff.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:03

I rang a diver and said, Do you want his stuff? Because I need it gone. I cannot look. And, to this, like, Funny enough, I was in Portugal, and you said you visited. I was walking down to the beach, and it was the first summer after he died, and there's scuba divers walking up. And, I guess because scuba diving, it's not something you see all the time. And it

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 55:22

Wait, it's not

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:23

I mean, I mean, Ben died in off the coast of Dover. It's not somewhere that you would go. I mean, I, I, I was a, I've got my paddy. I'm a, I was a scuba diver, but I was the appeal of diving in the British channel in March. No, thanks. I was very much a tropical water. Let's see the turtles, but much like Kevin, it was his passion. It was his love, his hobby. And you cannot stop a grown man doing what they love. You can't.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 55:49

I mean, he would go all alone all the time. So it wasn't unusual for him to be by himself. He would go with

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:53

is it. Ben was in the water on his own and it I've spoken to enough people. His husband has died just on the sofa, in the bed, walking the dog, you know, driving. I mean, God, if they died driving and taking out other people, you know?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 56:09

I think about if he did have a heart incident, which I think he did now that, and because of

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:14

it sounds like it, doesn't it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 56:16

the same symptoms that a lot of people who end up having widowmaker heart attacks have. He was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:21

We don't make it

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 56:21

all the time. Headaches. His shoulder hurt. He didn't wanna work out. He was exhausted all the time and it was just not like him.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:30

You said they didn't do an autopsy because his heart was so damaged, but that just doesn't feel right to me.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 56:36

I agree with you. They just didn't even offer. They were like, no, we don't, we do not think that you should get one.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:44

And actually, in the moment, you cannot advocate for yourself. Because now, you'd probably be like, no, no, no, I want one. But back then, it's just noise. It's just noise.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 56:55

That's how it was for my kids and I. Totally noise. Mm hmm.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:00

And actually my eldest son, uh, he was talking about wanting to be a marine biologist. He looked at me and, but I won't scuba. And I was like, I bet you have to as part of that job. But they're all competent swimmers and I got them back in the water very quickly. Um, but they, yeah, no, I, I, I will never scuba dive again. I can't stop them if they want to do it as they get older. Um,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 57:21

It's hard. I'm glad my daughter doesn't like it. And I mean, my partner doesn't like to do it either and he does, but he doesn't like, he hasn't really gone in a really long time. And, um. So, I'm kind of glad it's not a huge thing that he loves to do.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:36

yeah, I don't think I'd have, uh, got involved in another scuba diver. And actually when I dabbled in, um, as we do, you know, little bit, have a little look at, look at the online dating just to see, because you can, like me, it didn't exist right when you met Kevin and I, there was a guy that sort of, you know, liked, and he was, he was called Ben and his picture was a scuba diver. I was like, nope.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 57:56

Oh, gross. I mean, I had to stay away with anyone named. Kevin, you know, it was just crazy.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:05

I'm actually going to just poke my nose in a little bit because you mentioned your partner. Now, I am always really pleased, I think, to hear people have been able to find love again. Because, if you have been as in love as it sounds like you and Kevin were, and I, might mean Ben were and John is

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 58:22

very good marriage,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:23

Yeah, we did. And that's why I think it almost feels cruel because you know, so many people who actually hate their husbands and they're just swanning around, you know, but it means that you do somehow. In a weird sort of way, you'd think it would make you less likely to fall in love again. But I think it almost makes you more likely because you know what it looks like, you know what it feels like. And, and why, it was one of my guests who said, I was made to be part, I was made to be a couple. And I thought, and you, you, it doesn't mean that you'll settle for just any old bloke. But it means that when it comes along, you've, you notice it, you recognize it, and you fucking grab onto it. So I'm gonna just ask you to tell me a little bit about your, your, your partner, because you've been together a little while now, haven't you?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 59:05

Oh yeah, we've been together five years. So, um, I started dating about a year out. I mean, I had Little things that

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:16

Liaisons.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 59:17

the first year. I had a really, someone who was, I was very close to since I was a kid, and I think it was just like a too soon type of thing that happened. He's a lovely human being, wonderful guy, lives on the other side of the United States, and that didn't work, and there were little things that happened, but not anything really. I think it was just my heart was broken,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:41

You're looking for some comfort, right? You just, and it can be alcohol, sex, shopping, drugs, any, any or all of the above can apply and I felt immensely guilty because I thought why am I even doing this? Why do I want sex? Why do I want that? But it's, we talked about widow's fire and you know, my god, we shared some stories in our group, but it's a really natural first part of grieving that it's There's a shame attached to it and we don't talk about it because you feel like a scarlet woman.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:00:11

Well, I, I feel like, you know, when you're in a very loving relationship, like I was like, my husband was just adorable and sweetheart and loved everyone and everybody loved him. And he was just, I don't know, we just had a very close relationship. I'd known him since I was in high school. I fell in love with him in high school. I used my high school crush. We weren't together

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:31

Who is your

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:00:32

time at all. And my 18th birthday, he would, he went to Boston University, moved away, went to college. My 18th birthday, he's two years older, came and brought me a bottle of Freesia, champagne and had written on it, you know, when are we going out and then signed it. So I wanted to, he liked me and I liked him, but it did not happen for a long time. I ended up going to college. I got married to someone else.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:56

Stop it!

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:00:57

So I'm divorced.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:59

out now, isn't

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:01:00

Yeah, so I, I married my college sweetheart and, um, we were together for almost five years and Kev had gone on and had done his life and I, you know, I would hear about him over the years, but, um, you know, I got divorced. I had moved to Oregon, gotten divorced, moved back to Colorado, and I was living in Boulder at the time and I just kept running into him places. Because he was living with his mom and with another friend in Longmont and just kept running into him. And then one night I was out dancing with my girlfriends and that was way after my divorce and he was there and we went out and that was it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:01:42

And

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:01:42

we got married like five months later.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:01:44

Five months! Oh, that's, that, I mean, it's such a lovely romantic story, it's just the same shame of the endings rather shit, isn't it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:01:52

I know and so, you know, we had a really great relationship. We had our issues as all marriages do. We weren't perfect. We had things that were, you know, but when I was dating I I I was very disheartened because I was in my late 40s and that's not a really easy time to be dating. I think it's hard to date no matter what, no matter how old you are. But I feel like the dating pool is way different when you get

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:15

it has changed so much,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:02:17

are divorced and people have been hurt. There's a lot of baggage and a lot of people have children and ex wives and you know, all of the ex husbands you have. All of the baggage and when I was dating I you know, I met a actually a lot of nice people I was pretty picky about who I would go out with even on a date.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:39

Well, once you've been, once you've had that real magic, nothing else, it's got to be pretty magic to measure up. And

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:02:47

you know, I dated I dated someone for a few months in that time really nice person wasn't a good match and I think it was November of 2018 I just was like, you know what I Went off all these apps. I was on like three apps and one of them I sort of stayed on, but I wasn't paying for it. I just didn't even think about it. And I said, I'm taking the holidays off. My girlfriend, Christina, we went to Thanksgiving at her mother's house in Michigan and had a blast with my kids because they adored her. So my daughter was able to take the train and, and I just spent the whole, the holidays with my People with all of my friends and my family and I'm really big into music and concerts So, you know, I went to a ton of shows when Coda and I did over the years But it's non stop and that's been part of my healing journey is going to just tons of shows And um, so I did that and then like in January it was like towards the end of January I got an email and it was from This guy and he just said, Hey, you know, I saw your pictures on Hinge and you're cute. We should go out sometime. That's all he said.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:06

Nice to be called cute in your forties, isn't it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:04:08

And on this app, you can see their last name and I'm like, Oh wow, his name looks really familiar. I think I might know maybe he has a sibling or something, you know, I was just thinking I was looking at his pictures and I thought he was cute, but you know how men are, I don't think men put very good pictures up on dating apps.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:26

Did he have a fish?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:04:28

They're either 20 years younger, or they just, the pictures just aren't great. It's just because, and that says a lot to me, because it means they're not

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:37

Bane.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:04:38

conceited or vain, you know, because the pictures are like, oh cute, he had a picture of a car, because he's a car collector, and and I said, sure, yeah, why don't we go out sometime? And then I didn't hear back from him for like three weeks. I was like, okay, whatever. I mean, I didn't care anyway. I was really not dating. Didn't really care. And, um, finally one, one day he emailed me back and he's like, Oh shit, I'm sorry. I really don't use this email very much. And now getting to know him, I know him. He has like five different emails he uses for different things. So it made sense.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:14

A hundred, a hundred thousand unread emails I've got. I really need to do something about this.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:05:18

Oh, no question. And so he, we, um, talked. On the phone a little bit and Texted and I had, um, a time during that midweek when we first started talking where I had something called a late start. So we had meetings in the morning and then I had free time until my kids, my students came in the afternoon and he was like, hey, we should go. It was snowing. He's like, oh, we should go sledding or we should go do this. We should go do that. Like, he was like, talking about all these things he wanted to do and we had a lot in common and, um. He's like, well, hey, why don't we go out on Sunday? He's like, I have a big work thing. He was working for, um, a building type company, a building supply company as a manager then at the time. And he's like, I have an offsite, but I'll try to get together this weekend on Sunday. And so I kind of just said, okay, I just

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:13

roll in with it.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:06:14

So I've kind of rolled with it. I was at the point where I just, the dating was a lot and I was just taking a break and I was like, Oh my God, I just can't deal. And. I fell asleep and it was on February 10th, which is my dad's birthday. And so I had talked to my dad on the phone and I had fallen asleep on the couch. My son was in college at the time, so I was alone. It was just a quiet weekend and I woke up and I had The voice message and it was from him and it's, I still have it to this day. I saved it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:48

Awww.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:06:48

It's so sweet. And he's like, I, you know, I, I couldn't remember if you had kids or not, if you need to find a sitter, do you still want to go out? Where do you want to go? And so we ended up going out to dinner and meeting in Boulder. Um, he lived lives there. He has a house there and, um. We met up, and the minute he walked in, I was like, whoa. I, I, I, the minute I saw him, I knew there was a connection there,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:07:18

And you can't fake that, can you?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:07:20

you can't, and, and I hadn't felt like that with anyone. Like, I'd gone on quite a few dates. I mean, I wasn't, wasn't someone to sleep around and, you know, be, I mean, I went on a lot of dates, and I, there are a lot of guys I dated I didn't even get into that place with.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:07:36

Hmm.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:07:37

And so for me, I think I was just sort of waiting to see if it would happen again. Like if I had the same sort of spark that I had with my husband and the minute I set eyes on him, I just

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:07:48

his name?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:07:49

Scott. And we started talking and I said, your last name is familiar. I said, do you have a sister? And he said, yeah, I have one sister and I said, is her name, is her name, you know, and I asked and he said, yeah, and I said, oh, Kevin, my husband worked with her. They were work together for years and they were really good friends. And he's like, what? Oh, wow. That's crazy. And her husband also worked with Kevin. They were at a startup tech company, um, in the late 90s, early 2000s and had stayed friends. And I went back and looked and. They had contributed to, we had a GoFundMe at first, and they had, she had contributed, she and her husband to our GoFundMe, and it's weird, this connection. So,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:42

It's not like America's a small place, let's be honest.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:08:45

crazy. And so I'm like, whoa, so. Cab was good friends with her and really always thought the world of her, thought she was hilarious and funny and she is, she's quite a character. She's a funny lady. And, um, so that point we decided, you know, we had a great dinner and decided why don't we meet up and we had a lot of love for some of the same things. We love to travel. We love New Mexico. We both are huge. Lovers of Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I love a lot of the same music, love going to shows, and so we decided to make another date, and there was an Ansel Adams, um, exhibit at the park. Museum in my town and we decided to meet at the tavern down the street from my house We have this cute little English type pub that was opened. It's in the old grocery store in my neighborhood It's over a hundred years old the building. It's so cute It looks like a little English in those but so we met there and funny enough one of my good friends He was there with my sister in law was meeting up with them And we happen to be there at the same time, so they saw us on our date, so they got to meet him, like, on our 2nd,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:53

And how did that go?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:09:56

1 of my good friends got to meet and meet him and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:59

And was that scary? that scary? It was Kevin's sister, was it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:10:04

Seventh sister. Well, not so scary because she's just always been in my corner. She's always been my best, the biggest cheerleader for me ever,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:12

Yeah, Ben's mum's

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:10:13

I think, had a hard time with me dating, but they weren't jerks about it at all. They kind of let me live my life. My son less so. My daughter wasn't even a jerk about it. She was just like uncomfortable, I think,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:26

Well it's gross, isn't it? The thought of your mum having, you know, a sexual appetite and things like that. We don't want to think about that.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:10:32

no, no, no, no, God, none of it. And she was living far away. So I think that was good for her. She was like, whatever, you know, whatever

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:38

Mm.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:10:39

you know, and she'd met, you know, only one person that I even dated, um, prior to that. So she was like, whatever. And that date lasted until two in the morning. So we started at one in the afternoon and the date lasted until two in the morning. And, um, we've been together pretty much ever since and. Just, it took a while though. He's been hurt in past relationships and marriages and things and I think it took a while to really trust each other and because you know how it is with relationships, you just don't know with all the strange weird things that happen. Like ghosted by their husbands. Like, yeah, like just They go off somewhere and they come home and their

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:11:32

But technically ours did, right?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:11:34

Yeah, just weird stuff. So I didn't even know what to expect because we, you know, the experiences I had dating were weird. Like you'd be talking to someone for a few days and then they're gone. And so I think we both just, you know, for a bit. Had protective gear on just because we didn't know and it took a while

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:11:54

Yeah, I

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:11:55

a few months We started meeting each other's friends and and from that point on and weirdly enough Christina one of my best friends she met her partner within days of me meeting Scott and She had been divorced for quite a few years. And so it's funny We met our people around the same time and there's no question that he is my person

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:12:19

And you can have more than one, right?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:12:21

I think you can have definitely more than one in your life. You can, and I've been very lucky.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:12:27

The idea of this soulmate and you having one soulmate and when they die, when they die, you're, that's it for you. It actually, it's a very kind of old fashioned and probably used as a method of controlling women, you know? Because

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:12:39

I think it is.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:12:40

and if you go, you know, in, you know, yesteryear, the, the brother would step in and marry. Now Ben's got four brothers, I, none of them stepped up weirdly. Uh, but I know,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:12:50

he had, you know, I can tell you, I had, he had not friends, but friends of friends that,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:12:56

had a little sniff around.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:12:58

got, I got involved with one of them briefly and it was a huge mistake because he was a huge narcissist and did not treat me very well. Um, but it was only

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:13:08

really, aren't you, as a

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:13:09

last very long. It was a few weeks and thank God that didn't last long. But yeah, I just I tell all my widow friends and I said just any of my friends, my friends who were divorced who have been through hell, you know, I'm not taking away from divorced people and what they've been through. It's very different. It's very different and their trauma is different and a lot of stuff they've been through and I tell them, I said there are good people out there and they're looking for you just like you're looking for them and you have to be patient and you can't waste your time. in a relationship that isn't good for you. It doesn't mean it's abusive or anything. If the person, if you're just not feeling it, you shouldn't be with them and give them the chance to find the right person. Cause I feel like the reason why I met Scott was because it was open to meeting that person. And I wasn't bogging myself down with dating whoever.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:02

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, John and I, you may know, we met as, we were friends through a British

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:14:06

I love that your story is the cutest. And

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:10

and snogged through the window.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:14:12

He had covid. I'm telling you, I was riveted daily.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:16

Yeah, that was, I mean, we talk about this fear of kind of

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:14:20

It was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:20

to date, and then, you know, they bloody nearly die on you. It's, it's very,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:14:24

It was horrible.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:25

of him, really.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:14:27

It really was very selfish of him,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:30

But I

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:14:30

But I'm really glad that he's healthy and doing great

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:32

And do you know what? Sometimes it's the kick up the arse they need because he then began to take his health more seriously, eat better, we neither of us drink alcohol anymore, and it's It's, you know, you do, I mean, you wouldn't wish it on anybody, but sometimes you do need a shock. My dad had cancer last year and he came over yesterday and I hugged him and Dad, you look really like so well, like he'd put on a little weight, but in a good way. And I thought, and him and my mom, you know, they hold hands and they're booking trips and it's almost like the love or the relationship you take for granted. You have a close call and you're thinking, hang on a minute. I've got to squeeze everything I've got left out of life, and I think that applies to widowhood. It's

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:15:09

I'm still young. I mean, I was 40, 46 when he

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:13

long time to be on your own, right?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:15:15

It was a long time. And, and uh, and you know, I think the one thing I thought of immediately was, I'm alone.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:20

I thought I'd be alone forever. Miserable and unhappy and

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:15:23

how I was feeling. like, I'm gonna be alone. And, and, you know, and when I met Scott, I just had a little more faith. And it's funny, I, I. When I'm, when I was dating and it was just my girlfriends were the same way that we're dating. We were like, didn't want to be dick overkill, feel like we were clingy and text all the time and want to talk all the time. But when you feel that way about somebody you want to, but I held myself back. I was like, I just don't want to overwhelm when I wanted to think I'm psycho and weird. So it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:54

you always automatically go into, like, that married relationship, don't you? Because you're so used to having that dynamic. And John and I,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:16:00

right. And I think that's what I think at the beginning I was hoping for. And. It was kind of a slow burn for us in that. He, he moved in just last summer, and he's renting his house in Boulder, but we were together four and a half years before, almost four and a half years before he moved in. We moved in together. It was a long time, and my kids have grown to love him, too. I mean, my daughter calls him her stepdad, even though we're not married. She just, I mean, my kids love him,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:30

And it's nice for them to have a, this male, a male figure that they can look up to and, like yesterday, Hector. Um, had some dental surgery. His baby, you don't need to know this, but his baby teeth haven't come out. So

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:16:42

Oh, I, I know. I, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:44

and it was, it was really traumatic. He had to be put under sedation and not full intubation. Um, and so I'm sitting in the outside, cause I didn't want to leave. And John came up to help me cause we live like three minute walk, but I couldn't carry him myself. And he's sitting on my lap and he's all sorts of, you know, from the medicine. Um, I said, look, there's John there. And I said, do you want to go to him for a cuddle? And he sort of. You know, with the help of the nurse, he walked across and sat on his lap and I thought how wonderful that he has somebody else that he can seek comfort and support from. And it, you know, it's not for everybody. Some people don't look, don't find another relationship and that is entirely valid too. But I think if you're open to it and you want it. Society's sort of conventions and restrictions shouldn't stop you from being open to it, because love is really all there is, isn't it? It's all that remains of us when we're gone, and if you're lucky, you know. And it feels weird to call ourselves lucky, right? But lots of my friends have never met one decent bloke, and I've been lucky enough to meet two.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:17:42

that's me. I mean, I feel I've like hit the jackpot twice and you know, my ex husband's a real nice guy. He really is a good dude. He's does, he's an attorney and lives in Portland and you know, I think that I make really pretty good choices with people that I want to spend my life with, spend my time with. I just find myself every single day, like, I mean, my relationship with Scott is different than I had with Kevin. Kevin and I were

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:18:16

come into it as adults, right?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:18:18

babies. We never got a lot of time to ourselves. We were looking forward to it because we were young. I had my kids in my 20s. So we were looking forward to the kids leaving because we were still really young and I was going to travel with him on his business trips and do all these things we never got to do. And with Scott I'm able to do all that stuff because my kids are grown and we have a very chill existence. It's just really nice. We have a great Relationship and I just he's like my best friend. I love being with him. I adore him I I'm as in love with him as I was with Kevin. It's just different I mean, it's we just our relationship is just different. It's a different phase, you know of my life and You know, I'm just grateful that I'm able to share it with someone, you know, and, and I have thought to myself, and I honestly do feel this way. I think if something happened to him, I don't know if I would even, I don't

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:19:15

I I'd done. I

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:19:16

I'd be good. I really do feel that in my bones, that if something happened to him, I just don't really have, I wouldn't have any desire, I think, to be with anybody else. I, I know, I have my kids and I, I know I'm not going to though. I'm crisscrossing. You know, I, I, his parents are still very much alive. So like, okay, the genes are good. He's going to live to be old. We'll be old. And that's how I feel. So, but I think you always think in the back of your mind, like, what if something happens?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:19:46

Yeah, and I do think we live, um, it's a proven fact that we are in flight or flight and it leaves you really scared. And actually, weirdly, off on another tangent, I, um, I lay in bed last night and I went to bed early because I was sleeping with Hector, because, um, not Braden, and I had my phone and I was just thinking, what am I actually frightened of? What do I think is going to happen? Because I've got this, I, the anxiety that I, I, maybe I had it before, but booze, but I, it's very prevalent now. And I was, and I made a list and it's 50 odd things that scare me. And like, I've got stuff like snakes on there. But I've also

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:20:21

Oh, I hate snakes

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:20:22

Oh my God, they're my biggest baby. And it's stuff like, um, you know, I'm scared that, uh, John will die, that he'll walk out, that my children will be harmed. And somehow putting all of those fears onto like a piece of paper from my phone it today I feel a bit calmer. I'll let you know if it continues, but it

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:20:40

That's not a bad idea to write down what you're scared of because

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:20:44

Most of it you have no control

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:20:46

facing that and in my life I've met and you the older you get the more you meet people who everybody has stuff Everybody has a story. I mean I have I mean Scott has an incredible group of friends from college that I've been so You know, blessed to get to know, and can call a lot of them my friends too now, who've been through hell, like lost their entire families, who have been through, so you meet people who have just been through a lot of sadness and grief in their life, and they're still doing okay, they're, and I think those are the people that I really drew from when, when he died, and I think we're very lucky because I don't think widowhood was very, it was ignored. I think, I mean, being a man or a woman losing a wi, you know, a wife or a husband, I think men tended to just their way of dealing was getting married again pretty quickly. I don't think that's as common anymore. I think everybody since seems to be able to take a step back and actually be able to grieve before they move forward. And not everybody does it, but I think most of us, because we have that support, that group that we have, and there was another group that I. I found first before the Hot Young Widows Club that I met quite a few amazing people on too. And, um, I think having that support from men and women

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:22:11

Yes.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:22:12

in my age group was so helpful to know that, yeah, you

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:22:16

You're not alone.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:22:17

having people in there that have worked years out to know, hey, I can, I can be, I'm going to be okay. Um, it's always going to be with me though. You

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:22:26

Yeah, of course. But it's, it's, you make a choice. You make a choice whether you're going to put your big girl pants on and, and face the world, or if you're going to just lie down and crumble. And, you know, we've all been in some very dark places. We have. And

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:22:38

Oh my

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:22:39

and I've often wondered if the kids had been there, whether I'd have made it through. But you don't know, and I hope I would, because I think you would get kind of sick of me and told that we're strong, resilient, yada, yada, yada. But actually. Um, the core of strength that I found in myself, I didn't know I had it. I was very, like I said, I was very reliant on my husband. And, um, and now I know that I can figure it out. I managed to run the business. I managed to get the kids to school and they weren't always on time, but they were there and actually, I suppose I'd rather not have had to find out this way. But,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:23:09

I'm with you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:23:10

and actually hearing you talk about your relationship with Scott as well, because it's not going to be the same because you're not the same. Uh, I met them when I was at university. I'm not the same person anymore.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:23:18

I actually kind of like myself more now.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:23:21

I think I'm a much more compassionate. I think I'm much less selfish. I think I care much more about other people. I'm, I'm not squashing, you know, I realized that I have some stuff from my past that I just basically ignored and drank and, and it's made me go back and revisit that and my friendship dynamics. I still have some of my original friends, original friends, but I've, it has changed. It's shifted. I've got different friends and

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:23:44

Mm hmm.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:23:44

I took,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:23:45

I lost two of my best friends that I had since, when I, I, one of my best friends since I was 14. She, She felt like I, I mean, this was about, it had to have been about a two year, a little over two years out and she was a great help when my husband died, but we hadn't been close, close for years and she was having her own stuff going on in her life. And I think she expected me to be there for her. And it was really hard for me because it was a lot. And, and every time I would be with her, she would just complain about her husband. It would just made me mad. And I was just like, you know, and then she got upset with me because she's like, she couldn't join me and do all these fun things I was doing. So she basically dumped me and, and I've

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:24:31

jealousy around it sometimes too.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:24:33

it. And, but those, but there are people that I became. Close to, I have another friend from school that I became really, really close to for a long time and we're not as close as we used to be, but I think she has her own stuff going on. I don't think it's personal and, um, but I'm really grateful for her. So I'm just so grateful for those people who came about who I wasn't really close with before, who have stayed and who are now part of my people, they're my people, you know, I have close friends from school. Like I have some girlfriends, their husbands and like my. One of my good friends from high school. She and I are still good friends and her best friend from college He's like they're Manny and he would come he came out took care of their kids. I became good friends with him He was the first guy he got me Trashed I was so I have never been that drunk of my life and the man He yeah, I he I was under the table and he He

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:25:37

not been there, but we all know that's

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:25:38

Oh, my God, but just was years ago. I don't really drink anymore at all. I have a glass of wine once in a great while, but I don't really drink anymore either. And back then, I feel like I needed to tie 1 on just once like that. And man, I, you know, I, for him, I told him, I just use this out here for Christmas, visiting everybody. And I said, dude. I swear, that really did help me just re center myself, like, Jesus, you know, I've been through a lot and damn it, you know, I'm just gonna get out there and live my life, so, you know, I've been traveling and going on trips and just, yeah, I think you really change your perspective

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:26:18

Yeah, it's the kind of cliche of don't sweat the small stuff, isn't it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:26:23

Oh my god. There's so many things. I just don't care about anymore and other things I worry about but it's really more like for me. I feel like I failed my children a lot

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:26:35

God, I said this to somebody yesterday.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:26:38

feel like I failed them and that I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:26:39

You can't protect them.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:26:41

you can't protect them and and my daughter went through not just that trauma, but other things happened to her at school within that first year that were traumatic for her and I feel like I just wasn't there like I should have been for them, but I, we've had this conversation and she and I have really had long talks about it and I think she's forgiven me for that, that I just didn't have the capacity to, to help her through some of those things and she's called me on it. She's didn't ignore it. She called me on it, but, and I said, I don't know what you want me to do now. All I can do is just be your mom now.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:27:20

And actually, it's much like we say to the children. You know, there's no, you can apologise till you're blue in the face. But actually, it's, it's making amends, isn't it?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:27:28

My kids were, my son, there was some stuff, but not a whole lot with us because he lived with me for a year and a half after his dad died. My daughter didn't. So she's hearing things that are happening. She's coming home and seeing things and you know, I think it was very hard for her because she just wasn't here and it was hard for me because I wasn't there, not knowing everything that was going on in her life and what she was dealing with. And

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:27:57

I've got all this to come, haven't I? I

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:28:00

God, but seven years in, I think it's finally like my kids are finally doing well. My daughter is really, I mean, I, I tried to make sure that I took care of myself and I gave myself a lot of self care during that time. And I think she's really learned from me in that, taking care of herself, and I'm so proud of her because she's only 26 and she just really has taken hold of her, her, Being like she's taking care of who she is as a person mentally, physically, and Figuring it out, and I told her I said the 20s suck anyway. I mean John Mayer didn't call it a quarter life crisis for nothing. 20s really are rough, and I was doing through a lot in my 20s, and I told my kids I said, I want you to just have fun and experience everything you can and live your life And I'm really glad they've taken that to heart. They don't live near me now, but I think You know, my son's a 90 minute plane right away, but my daughter, it's much farther and I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:29:06

we live in a world

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:29:07

is it. I won't see her come back home for a while. So I'm like, okay, how about we go to Mexico next Christmas, you know, trying to, to lure them all to places and we'll go over there and visit. We went to Berlin and Prague last year for Christmas. We were gone for two weeks, just Scott and I, it was wonderful and got to see her and her new town. And it was fantastic. And Berlin is great. By the way, you guys

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:29:32

I, I have heard, and I'm

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:29:34

you and Jonathan should go to the two of you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:29:37

I, well, I took my oldest to Budapest at Christmas, and it was the first time I've done that, taking one of the kids on their own, because you sort of feel a bit disloyal.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:29:45

that with your children. Yeah, you could have those kid trips too. That would be a blast

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:29:49

And it's a, it's a lot cheaper than carting six people anywhere, and also you get to spend that time, and I'm, I'm waiting for one of them to sort of show an interest in like military history because Ben was very into it, and then I thought Berlin would be a fantastic, my, my dad was actually there at the um, when the Berlin Wall fell, he

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:30:05

It's amazing. Oh if you were there that,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:30:07

was, yeah.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:30:08

oh that place gives me chills. It

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:30:11

of it.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:30:12

it is wild. You, I mean it gives me chills thinking about it and you're walking around and you're looking. This makes me tear up. You look at these buildings and you're looking down and you have these brass plates that have people's names on them that were taken in the middle of the night and Kristallnacht when they came and took thousands of Jews away. That city is unbelievable and it's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:30:39

I'm gonna go. Okay.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:30:42

I, I absolutely love, love it. And she lived in the city in Kreuzberg for a, for a while, um, being an artist. But now they live outside of the city in a beautiful little place, not far from off the train. And it's a really cool, it's, I love, I just love traveling. I love Europe. Europe's my favorite. I have this, I mean, been an Anglophile my entire life.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:31:05

Well, I

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:31:06

I thought I was going to marry Nick Rhodes from Duran Duran when I was 15.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:31:09

Well,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:31:10

happen, but you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:31:14

That's my husband number four.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:31:14

still likes women in their 20s, so, you know, go, go

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:31:18

I have, I speak to you from my guest room because it's also my studio. And so there is always a bed for any traveling widows who want to stay. And I am very, my approximation to London is very convenient. But Rebecca, it has been incredible to talk to you. I've been captivated by you. I said to you I was going to make loads of notes. And actually, for me, I've not made as many because I can't take my eyes off you and I can't stop listening to you. You are an incredible storyteller. And I, I, I, if I wasn't pushing the time limit of what people will listen to on a podcast, I would continue. But I, I'm so grateful to you for taking the time for getting up at the crack of dawn and, and, and being so raw in your honesty and Just giving'cause I know that I, blah, blah, blah. I didn't expect early widows to listen to this. I thought it would be people who'd been widowed a bit longer. But the feedback I get is that people in those early, you know, the high eye of the storm, they are getting so much solace and support from this because they're listening to you and you're saying, yes, I, I, I, I built myself back up. I have a life and I'm happy. Same. Right. We're happy and we're sad at the same time. I know that I needed, I would have needed that because I, like we just said, we thought our lives were over. So what we're doing by sharing these stories is we're giving some hope out into that bleak world of widowhood. And without voices like yours, I, I, I, nobody wants to listen to me talk for a hundred episodes. So I'm so grateful and I, I think you're amazing. And I really cannot wait to meet up with you at some point in Europe because we're going to make this happen. Yes.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:32:51

still remember getting to know everybody when we got into our group and we were all still so raw and it was so early in some people. It was really early. I'm, um, very close to to Eva Spiegel and,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:33:05

I love Eva.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:33:05

very, very good friend of mine. And we've talked about that, how we've seen people just morph from, like, I remember just. you and I couldn't even believe what you'd been through. And it was still very early on. And I remember the whole court when you were going to court and all, I mean, I just remember all of us, everything we were going through and how I just, that support that we were going through. So many of us have been through just hell.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:33:36

And it hasn't ended there. Like, we've watched people go back into hell again and come back

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:33:40

know people losing, you know, People, parents, you know, just going through so much and it's, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:33:49

that I can pick up that phone and I can search for a group at any time, day or night. And if I needed, and sometimes I'll just go in and I'll just catch up and I'll comment and I'll like a few things just to show that I'm still there and I'm listening because you get bogged down in your own life and you, you want to be, you want to support people like they did you. And, and I guess that's what we're trying to do here. So once again, I am incredibly grateful to you for doing this. And it's in so far as talking about death can be a pleasure. It's like,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:34:17

We're very dark that way, though. I mean, I have my Florence cup. Do you see what it says? Sometimes I wonder if I should be medicated.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:34:24

I don't think there's any question for me.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:34:26

Yeah, it's like Florence and the machine cup. She's like, you know.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:34:30

there's a lyric from a Florence Machine song and it's, um, How could anything bad ever happen to you? You made a fool of death with your beauty. And that reminds

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:34:37

she just, she's like a little angel. We saw her come. She came to Denver about a year and a half ago. And I'm like, I just

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:34:45

Hey, I have one final question. What's your next gig? Who are you going to see next?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:34:50

Oh, gosh, who is it? I just, we, so I live near red rocks amphitheater. So you should come to Colorado sometime. Eve is coming out this year. We're going to go see Sarah McLaughlin together.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:35:01

Oh. Oh.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:35:02

Yes, but I think what is the next 1? I think we're going to go see Gary Newman and ministry. In April, but I love the Grateful Dead too. And we see, we go to a lot of like, Grateful Dead, like. Cover bands, so we do that, but I'm trying to remember if we have anything before April and I don't think we do. So, I think it's ministry and Gary Newman, and then the summer comes and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:35:30

Same. We, but we keep seeing things, bands and artists we want to see, and we keep booking them, and I'm like, we got like eight gigs this year. But I'm taking my son, he doesn't know, but he doesn't listen, um, I was a massive Oasis fan. They were my, I went to Nubworth Uh, Liam Gallagher. Not together, they don't play together, but I've seen Liam, and so I

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:35:49

like both of their, I like Noel and Liam's solo work a lot.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:35:54

but he's got, I got him like a massive Oasis poster for his room at Christmas, and he doesn't know, but I got two tickets to see Liam at, um, the O2 in April.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:36:02

Oh, he's going to flip out. I know I have such a wide range of music. I love everything.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:36:08

got

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:36:09

to go see Billy Joel this summer. We're going to go see, um, my morning jackets. One of my favorite bands. I saw the cure last year. They were my first band that I ever saw when I was 15. So, I mean, I just, I love

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:36:22

Same. Same. And I like, weirdly, I like it more I don't drink. Because you, you can really soak up

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:36:26

I agree.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:36:27

I'm not constantly thinking, can I get to the bar? But, you know, that's, that's all being the

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:36:31

We actually have our little, like, Scott and I Now, where you have, like, we do, like, the sparkling water lime thing

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:36:36

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Soda and lime. Yeah,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:36:38

feels like you're drinking something, but you're not.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:36:40

I've got, I'm drinking this thing, it's magnesium water. Because I tell you what, I keep drinking things like Coke and lemonade and fizzy, fizzy

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:36:47

is one of my favorites

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:36:49

But it doesn't, it's not great for your body, is it really? Anyway, on that note, um,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:36:54

Well, it was so great. Thank you so much for doing this. And I think this podcast is really important. And I think I have a friend who recently lost her husband just a month ago. And, um, and it's crazy getting to my age. I'm in my 50s now and people are really start losing people and. I think it's so important to have support and have it. And a lot of my friends are like, hush, you, we always know. I always have people saying, can you talk to this person? Because, you know, and even when I talk about that, how people are all be like, can you talk to them?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:37:25

is it Laurie?

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:37:25

it. Are you open to it?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:37:27

The Grief Sherpa. Was it Laurie that said that? I think it was. The Grief, the Grief

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:37:31

Oh yeah, it was Lori.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:37:33

also taking, being that contact for people can be very overwhelming, and I think by doing this, almost you get to do it, without having to be, like, literally at the end of a thing. The problem is I, I fall in love with all of you, and I want to stay in touch with you, so, um, but I,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:37:47

You know, I know Jess came to see you. Jess and I are good friends

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:37:51

Oh yes! Yes! Oh my god,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:37:53

just came.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:37:54

loved her.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:37:55

Oh, she's adorable.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:37:56

didn't, I thought Tabby was gonna go with her, like, I didn't, I, I,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:38:01

well, that's what I told her. I said, Jess, you're going to, you know, you're going to take one of Rosie's kids home.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:38:06

honestly, her and Tabs were like, just, they were this kind of united front, kindred spirits, and, and actually I haven't had her on yet, you've just reminded me, I really must chase her up for a booking, cause,

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:38:17

amazing. We just went to see Jenny Lewis in California together. I flew out to LA and we hung out for a long weekend together.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:38:22

jealous you guys will get to do this, with your internal

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:38:25

close, but you know what? I do come to your area and we have tons of family in Ireland. And my daughter, if she ends up living there at some point, which she may. You know, I'll be over there more often and closer. So, and I told her, I mean, if my daughter lives over there, there's no way she could keep me away. Especially if she ends up having a grand baby one day. So, you know, we'll be able

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:38:47

shall, I shall make sure you have my phone number and we shall stay in touch. And for now, my darling, you keep on keeping on because you're an inspiration and I am proud to know you. Take care, darling.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:39:00

Hang in there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:39:01

And for everybody else that's listening, as always, you take care of yourselves. And if you've got any questions or if you've been affected by today's episode, please do reach out. And I'm sure that Rebecca will be happy to answer any questions I can forward to her. And as always, my inbox is, is, it's always open. I might miss your email or your message, but I'll get there eventually. But for now, take care.

Rebecca Vogel-Pitts: 1:39:21

Yeah. Thanks, Rosie.